Replacing my 1438 for a 2L in my 68, Opinions?

[azruss]

What the 2L will buy you is a big boost in mid-range torque. This was very successful for me because i'm not one to take my engine to 8k. With the 1438, i was always shifting up into the power band to get myself any kind of punch. That wont change with tweaking a 1438 as you will be adding more horses as the expense of torque.
Still, I understand Brad's point of view, especially with an early spider. You will retain more of the original intent of the car's design. Both directions will give you an improvement in what you have. It is just personal taste and driving style as to the direction you want to go.

[fiat218]

What the 2L will buy you is a big boost in mid-range torque. This was very successful for me because i'm not one to take my engine to 8k. With the 1438, i was always shifting up into the power band to get myself any kind of punch. That wont change with tweaking a 1438 as you will be adding more horses as the expense of torque.
Still, I understand Brad's point of view, especially with an early spider. You will retain more of the original intent of the car's design. Both directions will give you an improvement in what you have. It is just personal taste and driving style as to the direction you want to go.

Now u all tell me 1.4 would be better, then 2.0

[So Cal Mark]

bigger is better. We've done that swap on several cars. A mild 2L will run circles around a radical 1438. There are some issues to deal with on the swap.
Just a suggestion, leave the cases of beer for after the job is completed

[spiderdan]

Tx, I really appreciate you guys chiming in.
As I thought, this is going to be an EZ decision, based on the opinions here...
NOT!
I do like the idea of having more mid range torque but I also like the idea of keeping the 68 as original as possible.
But I do like the idea of more power, turning cicles around...but I do like my flat hood.

How much will the switch cost?

Haven't talked $ yet, but knowing Canadan, it will be a good deal.
Maybe he just wants to free up storage space by floging his 2l on me

leave the cases of beer for after the job is completed

Or quittng time, if it don't get done in a day (4 days/4 cases estimate)

[spiderdan]

I have taken several 1438cc engines and installed larger, higher compression pistons, performed mild head work, put in slightly warmed cams, and twin or single performance carburetors

If I keep my 1438, I would like to chat further with you about tweaking it, sounds like you have been there, done that.
Tx

[csi2000s]

I have a 1974 model with a 2 litre and twin weber carbs. It's a beast! You should do the same. It's just an engine, keep the 1438 if you want to go back to original. The 2 litre gives you the power to exploit its fine chassis and the torque is amazing.

[fiat218]

I have a 1974 model with a 2 litre and twin weber carbs. It's a beast! You should do the same. It's just an engine, keep the 1438 if you want to go back to original. The 2 litre gives you the power to exploit its fine chassis and the torque is amazing.

That's what I am going to do, beek will have it at his shop and when I'm done with the 69 I will get him the parts to rebuild that engine too, and also I will get the most out of it ,he will build it as far as he can
He can be my engine builder . I would not mind doing another 2.0 for my 80 ,but one at a time,I don't think I'd go to this extend on the next 2.0

[spiderdan]

The 2 litre gives you the power to exploit its fine chassis

Tx for your opinion csi2000s. I drive my spider, some would say, hard and fast. I am worried that the extra power, torque and my driving will cause problems with my fine old chassis, trans and diff.
However, I do like the idea of driving "a beast".

Jim, I just went thru your engine rebuild thread...
WOW!
Engine\beek envy...

[fiat218]

The 2 litre gives you the power to exploit its fine chassis

Tx for your opinion csi2000s. I drive my spider, some would say, hard and fast. I am worried that the extra power, torque and my driving will cause problems with my fine old chassis, trans and diff.
However, I do like the idea of driving "a beast".

Jim, I just went thru your engine rebuild thread...
WOW!
Engine\beek envy...

[bradartigue]

I have taken several 1438cc engines and installed larger, higher compression pistons, performed mild head work, put in slightly warmed cams, and twin or single performance carburetors

If I keep my 1438, I would like to chat further with you about tweaking it, sounds like you have been there, done that.
Tx

Sure, any time.

Most comments above - and I'm not trying to pick too much here guys - but most comments above are from people who've driven exhausted 1438s and are comparing them to freshly rebuilt 2000's. It isn't a fair comparison. This all goes to how you choose to drive and what you expect from the car, but a freshly rebuilt 1438 is a great running, high revving engine. For the cost of the 2000 and all the work involved you could rebuild that 1438 and its transmission and install brand new twin carbs and cams and have head work done and ... and ... and ...

I hate to see you lose the character of the car - the hood and clean engine bay - and do what amounts to a sh*tload of mechanical work getting a 2L + transmission + clutch + other crap in there.

I say if you want a Spider 2000 buy one. They are wonderful cars. Plenty of people want the early cars and motors. Hell I could arrange a trade for you tomorrow for a nice 2L...

[spiderdan]

Tx for that Brad, interesting perspective.
I'm gonna read your "FIAT 124 Spider Engine Modification and Maintenance" link. It can only help me in making an educated decision.
I do like the idea of keeping her pure and original, but the rebel in me wants more power.
I know it's not a race car, it's a sports car, but...

[fiat218]

all this talk is making me think that maybe i should keep the 1.4 and keep it orginal. i will let beek make that call for me when he see the car, i trust his judgement, if he says keep it orginal then we will just buy more parts and still have a 2.0

[spiderdan]

maybe i should keep the 1.4 and keep it orginal

Jim, I'm starting to think the same. But I guess you'll make that decision before me. I will have to decide once I get my car out of winter storage, which doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon up here.
Freagin' rodents.

[fiat218]

Lol I don't think we will have spring this year

[bradartigue]

Tx for that Brad, interesting perspective.
I'm gonna read your "FIAT 124 Spider Engine Modification and Maintenance" link. It can only help me in making an educated decision.
I do like the idea of keeping her pure and original, but the rebel in me wants more power.
I know it's not a race car, it's a sports car, but...

I don't talk a lot about this kind of thing in there, because I'm not keen on swapping motors around. It's more centered on stuff you can do yourself, like the below---you can do everything below in your shop except for cutting the piston bores (unless you're a machinist!):

1438 block with properly sized pistons, HC if you can find them, and good rings
1608 head, which is about 25% larger (in port size) than the 1438
Mild performance camshafts
Single DFEV or Twin IDFs
New clutch
Electronic trigger in the block-mount distributor, good Bosch coil, good wires, good plugs

(note that 1438cc manifold might not fit the 1608 head due to a water port difference, use the later style single manifold)

Here's an old thread from Mirafiori when Pete Angel measured the heads:

From a visual inspection of original, un-ported 1438 & 1608
heads, here are the measurements of two examples:

Port Opening Size(mm)
Appl. Casting Nos. Intake (area) Exhaust(area)
---- ------------- ------------- -------------
1438 124AC 4166393 32x41 (1312) 32x38 (1216)
1608 124AC 4239436 38x46 (1748) 35x40 (1400)
--------------------------------------------------
Difference 436 mm2 184 mm2

The area of the intake port opening is significantly larger on
the 1608(25%). The exhaust port opening is slightly larger(13%).
Through visual inspection, the port runners are comparably
larger in volume on the 1608 than the 1438.

Other detected differences:
The 1608 head has an additional H2O port at rear of intake
manifold mounting face. Cannot use 1438 manifold on 1608(or
higher)because of this (and vice versa). Haven't cc'd yet, but
the combustion chambers on both heads appear the same, except
the 1438 has less material at the piston relief notches on
forward and rearward edges of each chamber(possibly done by PO
to accomodate high comp pistons). The other dimensions of the
chambers appear identical between the heads. Based on these two
samples, the 1608 would have a slightly higher CR than the 1438.

Head gaskets are interchangeable(if not the same). All mounting
locations are identical(head bolts, cambox mtg, intake & exhaust
bolt patterns, H2O inlet hsg, hi & lo temp sendors). Oil
pressure feed and drainback holes are identical. Any other
differences aren't apparent. Input by the parts experts may
suggest differently concerning valves, springs, guides,
retainers, etc.

BTW: the combustion chamber center-to-center spacing on all 124
DOHC heads is the same. Fiat did not stretch the spacing of the
chambers to accommodate the greater piston-to-piston spacing of
the larger blocks. If they had, the valve locations, cam boxes &
cams would've had to change as well. You will find that the
center of the combustion chambers do not align with the piston
centers on the larger blocks, making the 1438 & 1608 head/block
configurations more symmetrical (& efficient?). A 2.0L head will
bolt directly to a 1438 block and work(fact)with only slight
mods to a single water passage ahead of #1 cyl. The 1800 head
should be able to do the same.