I love this stupid car!

[paintdudeluke]

I only got this project to save gas and have a little toy. Bought it for 800- in december and put new tires, battery, nearly complete ignition system, simple short exhaust, fixed the heater core, free flo air filter, then I stripped the interior, put in new gauges, and am getting my exhaust redone out the back and the roll bar bent this week. I have new complete brake system on the bench to be installed as soon as I get a few hours and just ordered a new top tonight that I will be installing in a week or so.

The point is though, I never expected to enjoy this thing so much. I really adore it. I can't wait to pull it in the booth and repaint it and throw on some new monza 15s and tires. Having restored tons of cars (by trade) I am really flying through this project even though I drive it nearly every day. I pull off side jobs every weekend to fund the project so I'm short on time to actually do it because I'm hustling to buy all the parts.

It took me a little while to get my head around its design, wiring, plumbing and all its little weird differences, I scoured all the manuals and schematics for a few weeks to digest it, but now, somehow it all makes sense and I get the car. Great little design and handles like a beast, what a go-cart! After its pretty much done I'm going to be sketching out the v6 swap just to give it a little more balls. I've decided on the 3.4 w/5 speed out of a mid 90s firebird. Even bone stock, 200lbs of torque and 150 hp should rock the car pretty well. A few complications though, I have to fab a front sump pan etc. Nonetheless, I'll be in no hurry to pull whats in it as long as it runs well, which it does. Funny how sometimes little unexpected things turn out to be so enjoyable. I had no idea what I was getting into when I found this half dead roach in that dudes garage, just happy that I did. He's gonna crap when I drive it back over and show it to him when its done.

[bradartigue]

Spend the equivalent time you'd waste putting a V6 in there on modifications to your stock 2L and you'll get more balls from it than you can imagine. Absolutely nothing to be gained from an engine swap in these cars.

[vandor]

I'm glad you like it!

[paintdudeluke]

Spend the equivalent time you'd waste putting a V6 in there on modifications to your stock 2L and you'll get more balls from it than you can imagine. Absolutely nothing to be gained from an engine swap in these cars.

ok, to explore that thought, I'm expecting that I'll spend 15-1800 on the swap. In reality, if I spent that on this engine, what would I realistically end up with? a rebuilt engine and a car that does 0-60 in 9 seconds? I'm not making an AC cobra, but I'd like something that could pull under 15s in the quarter. I'm open to building the motor if it can really produce respectable performance without mortgaging my house, in fact I'd prefer to keep the motor in it. Please sell me on the idea, because it seems to me that for the money, a light v6 would outperform anything i could do to the 2,0 thats in it. Start selling. I'll but if you can.

[bradartigue]

I will concede that most guys who approach these cars as candidates for engine swaps and aftermarket parts are not in the same camp as I am, and I don't need or want to start an argument here. So I'll add my thoughts and be silent otherwise:

Your goal seems to be making a car from the 1970's accelerate like a modern car, with a budget that isn't enough to buy two carburetors and a tank of gas. Not sure how to tell you to achieve that. Engine swaps rarely make the streets and when they do are hideously executed. The engine bay of the Spider was carved around the engine in it, which is a Lampredi designed twin-cam, a work of art.

Hi performance rebuilds of the twin-cam can achieve incredible amounts of power - 150HP to 200HP+ - and cost a lot of money. You would be into the $4000 range (and up to $10 and $12k) if you engage with a master builder. If you're in the do-it yourself camp you'll be in the price of parts, at least $2k, and this still will accomplish the acceleration of say a modern VW Golf (which accelerates faster than a first generation Ferrari 308, but that's modern vs. antique for you).

I'd spend that money on getting the car otherwise correct and enjoy it, or sell it and buy a newer car but still inexpensive car like a Porsche 944, which does have the acceleration you want.

[RoyBatty]

Does that budget include upgrades to the driveline/rearaxle?

[narfire]

The 3.4 seems to be the engine of choice around here for swapping into the British cars. (MG and TR-6's) Saying that, the local fellow here that had it done has spent upwards of 30G. He had the brakes swapped out so the car could stop with the extra weight and power, tranny was changed and so was the rear end to deal with the power and torque.
I'm in the camp with sticking with the original engine. The FI can be tweeked with the stock FI system to give great performance for these engines and if you go to the after market injection systems then the power you are looking for would be attainable. Reading the posts over the years about this kind of power though, most will source a 131 tranny as it is supposed to be able to handle the extra power over the stock tranny's. Upgraded brakes would be a consideration then as well.
I noticed in your original post you would have the skill-set to do all this yourself so the $$$ amount I have mentioned would be considerably less.
I'm guessing I have around 120hp or so at the engine after some mods and the car pulls well. I upgraded the suspension with 15 inch wheels and 205 tires along with Koni's and 1" front bar and I have a hoot in the twisties. Kind of what the car of this era excels at.
More power and modern.... I'd be interested in the Honda 2000...
Have fun regardless...remember among all the acronyms, FIAT is fixing it as therapy
Chris

[spidernut]

There are people who've done the swap successfully. Keep in mind that it is more than just a motor and tranny that you're swapping. That power would tear up the differential extremely fast. It was not designed to take that kind of power. So, you'd have to replace your running gear from radiator to differential. That also means creating a custom dash due to different gauges - your speedo won't work, you're tach won't work, oil pressure gauge won't work, etc. You'd also have to install a new braking system since the standard single caliper disc brakes would be a bit inefficient at stopping your car at 100 mph with the added weight of the drive train.

The other issue will be the added weight in the front. The cars are already nose heavy and tend to under-steer pretty badly in the turns. Adding the weight of a V6 and modern trans will make it worse. It may go in a straight line faster, but it won't handle as well in the tight turns.

A V6 Spider sounds like fun no doubt, but it will also greatly devalue the car. Mods like this do not help your car's value since (as stated by Brad) most are not done well. It would have to be show quality to add anything to the value of the car.

It sounds like you want a drag racing sleeper. If that's the case, you might as well go with a small block V8 and make it wicked fast in a straight line! I can admire the cars that have had significant modifications if they are done beautifully well. I would never buy one though. These kinds of modifications mean a car has been driven way too hard to be of value to me. Just my opinion.

You could build up a twin turbo rotary and fit it under the hood easily. It has been done before. They're much lighter in weight, have 255 hp out of the box, and can be pushed to over 400 hp. The RX7 differential is allegedly an easy fit in the Spider too making it all Mazda running gear which would eliminate compatibility issues.

[aj81spider]

Owning a car is a really personal experience - so YMMV. However, I'm generally in Brad's camp philosophically (except that I like the look of Panasports on a Spider!) - including not wanting to start an argument. If your only goal is pepping up the Spider, for example getting to 15 second 1/4 mile, it seems pretty reasonable to do with the current engine. Stock it did a 17:

http://mybrainhurts.com/projects/fiat/r ... dandtrack/

However in my opinion (which, when combined with $1.25, will get you a cup of coffee in my cafeteria), a Spider is not a high performance car - it's a top down, twisty road, fun car. If you want a high performance car you should get one - if you want a classic Sports Car then the Spider fits the bill perfectly. I have a friend with a turbo 944 that is a rocket ship. To get a Spider to that level would mean taking away everything that made it a Spider. You'd need a new engine, new suspension, new brakes, new rear end, better seats, a roll bar. When you were done the only parts of a Spider that would be left would be some body panels and a crappy electrical system. If that's the case, why not save a lot of time and money and start with something like the 944?

I do recognize that my opionion is not shared by all, and I do stand in awe of some of the engineering and fabrication skills that I've seen by a few others on this forum who are going the route you propose. I am just of the opinion that you should evaluate what you want out of a car and then start with an appropriate base.

Opinion offered up non-judgementally and as an opinion only! Should you elect to drop a new engine in I'll read your threads with interest and be impressed by your fabrication skills.

[81SPIDERMATT]

i never really get into the debate of replacing engine .... mainly because i am an idiot and do not posses the skills to even think about it .... BUT ... like you ... i was very surprised at how much and how fast i became a fan (lover) of my car ... this site..and the people on it .... just seems wrong to me now .... use your skills to enjoy the car as long as you can

need for speed has so many options other the ripping out the heart of an Italian beauty

[bradartigue]

i never really get into the debate of replacing engine .... mainly because i am an idiot and do not posses the skills to even think about it .... BUT ... like you ... i was very surprised at how much and how fast i became a fan (lover) of my car ... this site..and the people on it .... just seems wrong to me now .... use your skills to enjoy the car as long as you can

need for speed has so many options other the ripping out the heart of an Italian beauty

The people on this site seem wrong to you, or replacing the engine?

There is something wrong with most of our minds, I'll admit that.

[mscafide]

I think your go fast money could be better spent on making it more enjoyable for you to drive.

I bought a Volvo station wagon that in stock form had a 0-60 of 6 seconds. I then programmed the ecu to go faster and never looked back at my Fiats to make them go faster like new cars.

Unless I want to do some vintage racing I will continue to enjoy it with some simple mods.

Nonetheless I will support your effort and enjoy your progress.

Good luck.
Mike

[paintdudeluke]

An engine conversion would be pretty routine for me, so imagining me doing a butcher hack job is out of the question. I restore hot rods for a side living and paint motor coaches for a day job. I have a great shop and have done a number of nice conversions.
That being said, I have regretted a few of them. A V8 280z was a flop. One of you mentioned that this is not really the nature of the car to be a sports monster. I am about 70% happy with the way it is. It might not take much more to keep me content. Perhaps I should try to cram a turbo down its throat. It already has MAF. That might be enough with a set of cams to keep me happy. I do not want to make it feel less nimble, that's one of the things I like the most about it. But when it wont even do a burn out...that's a little sorry.

[bradartigue]

An engine conversion would be pretty routine for me, so imagining me doing a butcher hack job is out of the question. I restore hot rods for a side living and paint motor coaches for a day job. I have a great chop and have done a number of nice conversions.
That being said, I have regretted a few of them. A V8 280z was a flop. One of you mentioned that this is not really the nature of the car to be a sports monster. I am about 70% happy with the way it is. It might not take much more to keep me content. Perhaps I should try to cram a turbo down its throat. It already has MAF. That might be enough with a set of cams to keep me happy. I do not want to make it feel less nimble, that's one of the things I like the most about it. But when it wont even do a burn out...that's a little sorry.

Well I think then you've gotten to the crux of the issue, you don't seem to know what one that is properly set up can do to begin with. Before you go throwing parts at the engine, get the thing running right. If you can't do a "burn-out" - if that's a priority - then give the thing a tune-up, check out all the things that should be working and make them work. Then you can do burn-outs.

[paintdudeluke]

Not sure what I'd do as an additional tune up. It has new plugs, wires, ignition module, coil, cap/rotor, fuel filter, air filter, timing is on, fresh oil, idles like a sewing machine, revs pretty nice and starts pulling fairly strong from about 4200-5500. Starts instantly even if its freezing outside. Never pings under load and only get premium gas.

Like I said at the beginning, I got it as an economy gas saver because my bronco drinks gas like a dragster. It has served that role very well. I just enjoy it so much it makes me want to play like a hooligan but its not quite up to it. After all, its ~23lbs /HP. I'm just looking for a way to find 50% more power. The V6 still seems like the simple shortcut all things considered, but I would like to see one with a strong 2.0 just to compare. Building the stock engine up sounds like $100 per HP and is not in my budget. I would leave it stock before I did that.