To bypass or not to bypass proportioning valve?

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paintdudeluke

Re: To bypass or not to bypass proportioning valve?

Post by paintdudeluke »

surfingfreeman wrote:Mark what about it's role in poor weather conditions?
It seems to me that if the valve reduces fluid pressure once the front brakes are loaded and the rear end starts to lift, then poor traction scenarios could not benefit from the device because if traction is lost, there is no effective loading of the front wheels causing the rear to lift and actuate the valve.

Rephrase:

1) Poor traction = traction loss before heavy brake load can be applied.

2) No heavy front brake load = no rear end lift

3) No rear end lift = no P valve actuation

Conclusion:

IF poor traction, THAN no valve actuation. (simple hypothetical syllogism)

The logic is valid, but is the argument sound? Is there some aspect of function I am missing?
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phaetn
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Re: To bypass or not to bypass proportioning valve?

Post by phaetn »

The only issue I see is with your first premise. It might still be possible to have heavy enough braking that would shift weight to the front even in poor weather, actuating the compensator, yet still not locking the fronts. (Not with the snow we have around here, mind you, but maybe in rain.) It all depends on the surface, tread, contact patch, etc.

With lower than ideal traction, and with load shifting forward, you could actually still get quite a bit of grip with the fronts (more grip, conceivably, than the car in a neutral stance or with very stiff springs or low ride height because of the very weight transfer putting load on the front tires not only affecting the actual contact patch but the sprung weight applied to those wheels). Yet the back will necessarily have less traction because of that very same factor; and if the backs do lock in less than ideal traction, once you get any slip angle involved the rear is more likely to keep rotating around than if conditions were dry. This would be even more reason to limit additional force to the rear brakes in poor weather conditions.

My own experience (including some limited track work in a race-prepped 911C4 and many misspent years in my youth careening into snow banks with various cars) is that poor weather just exacerbates a car's existing tendencies, it doesn't completely change braking or suspension dynamics. The same types of effects will happen as in the dry, just with very reduced forces and much lower speeds, naturally.

The million dollar question, I suppose, is IF there is enough traction in any given situation to shift enough weight forward to actuate the compensator without locking the fronts and losing the benefit of such a system. I can easily imagine that there would be, but it would obviously vary case by case, including factors like the car's velocity, the driver's ability to effectively threshold brake, the car's sprung weight, its ride height, type of coils, type and condition of tires, the quality of road surface itself, the amount and nature of the water, etc, etc. Every situation will be unique.

If you've read this far, I agree with P2 and P3, though. :)

Oh yes: Socrates was a man.... All men are mortal...

Cheers,
phaetn
paintdudeluke

Re: To bypass or not to bypass proportioning valve?

Post by paintdudeluke »

Awesome reply! I wish you lived close enough to play a game of chess, listening to a Haydn symphony, and discuss the geopolitical catastrophes unfolding before our eyes. Ever read anything from Alain De'botton?
"Consolations of philosophy" and "status Anxiety" are great light reading if you're looking for something fresh.

Again, well displayed reasoning. 8) 8)
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phaetn
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Re: To bypass or not to bypass proportioning valve?

Post by phaetn »

paintdudeluke wrote:Awesome reply! I wish you lived close enough to play a game of chess, listening to a Haydn symphony, and discuss the geopolitical catastrophes unfolding before our eyes. Ever read anything from Alain De'botton?
"Consolations of philosophy" and "status Anxiety" are great light reading if you're looking for something fresh.

Again, well displayed reasoning. 8) 8)
Sounds like fun!

I'm not familiar with Alain De'botton. I'm an English and philosophy (epistemology) teacher by trade so I'll definitely check it out. While my job is to think about thinking, right now all I'm thinking about is my upcoming Fiat Spider ownership!! :)

An ontological question: to proportion valve or not to proportion valve?

Cheers,
Phaetn
1974 CS1
32/36 DFEV; CompuTronix ign.
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