Cost to replace floorpan? (Rust on a possible buy)

[phaetn]

I'm seriously looking at a 1981 Spider 2000 with about 87k miles (140,000km). The price is right (about 4k), but in speaking to the owner over the phone he mentioned rust on the driver's side floor pan. I haven't had ocular proof of anything yet, apart from the owner's pics from his online ad (see following). From having perused this board, I know rust is the big issue with these cars, especially in the front shock towers or where the rear trailing arms attach, as well as the floor pans.

I asked the owner, can you kick your shoe through it? He said no, but that you could punch through it with a screwdriver and mentioned this might make it fail a safety. Obviously I don't want the floor rails dropping through the car or my foot going through the floor when actuating a pedal in a real-life Fred Flinstone braking manoeuvre.

How much do you think it would cost to weld in a new floorpan? I'm wondering if it's worth it at all, or if I should just keep looking. Apart from that, the price seems right and it's local, which is tough find in the Great White North if you're not in Toronto or Vancouver... Obviously I need to see it and have a test drive, but if this is something to which the seller is admitting then I really know it needs attention (I'll find out about all the stuff he's not telling later).

The following are the owner's pics, not mine, and I don't know their age:







Any replies are welcome. I don't mind spending an extra 1.5 K or so to get things fixed up (including some welding) if other things look okay given the relatively low 4K asking price...

Cheers,
phaetn

[courtenay]

I'd take a magnet along if you go to look at the car. It looks like it has been repainted, given that the rear bumper shocks are the same colour as the body - they're normally black. You'll want the magnet to see if there's body filler around the wheel arches and rocker panels. Others here will know better than I about cost of replacing floor panels, but I don't think it's all that expensive - particularly if you do it yourself.
BTW - where in the GWN are you located? If you're anywhere east of the BC/Alta border, I suspect you're going to have to bundle up big time to go car hunting.

[vandor]

I would say that at this age more than half of all Spiders will have enough rust in the floors to be able to poke a screwdriver through. It's pretty common.
The question is how big an area is rusted. If it's a few small areas then it should not be too bad to get it fixed. It's not cosmetic after all.
The typical areas for the floors to rust is by your heels, where the floorpan curves up to the firewall, and also behind the seats, usually toward the outside. Rust can also form along the outside corner where the floor meets the rocker panel. 98% of rust starts from the inside, so looking under the car won't tell you much, unless it has rusted through.

[narfire]

My two-bits... as mentioned in the new member thread, I have done the rusted car thing and the stuff is insidious. One could take the rockers off and the sub frame could be rusted out. Where is the car? Cars from back east or Vancouver to some extent will have some rust.

Keep looking and don't be afraid to travel a bit or if a member is nearby, they might be able to have a look-see for you.
Bottom line...get as rust free as possible. The mechanicals are relatively easy to work on/figure out and there are plenty of parts available.
The one in Nelson has been on for a while, likely because Nelson is out of the way. It was originally advertised in Kaslo, up the road from Nelson and even more out of the way but a beautiful area.
http://bc.kijiji.ca/f-fiat-spider-Class ... hFormZtrue
Chris

[4uall]

I live in Ottawa (where this post has been on Kiijii for a while), there is a great local shop (Milanos on Aberdeen in Litlle Italy) to help out. There is also a great place called Wolf steel that sells floorpans etc which some members have had good results with

http://alfaparts.net/

Good luck with it all

[phaetn]

I live in Ottawa (where this post has been on Kiijii for a while), there is a great local shop (Milanos on Aberdeen in Litlle Italy) to help out. There is also a great place called Wolf steel that sells floorpans etc which some members have had good results with

http://alfaparts.net/

Good luck with it all

Thanks so much! I live in (freezing!) Ottawa, too. Great find on the body panels -- and in-country, too, so not all the hassles of customs, etc.

I'm hoping to get a Spider by this spring...

I would say that at this age more than half of all Spiders will have enough rust in the floors to be able to poke a screwdriver through. It's pretty common.
The question is how big an area is rusted. If it's a few small areas then it should not be too bad to get it fixed. It's not cosmetic after all.
The typical areas for the floors to rust is by your heels, where the floorpan curves up to the firewall, and also behind the seats, usually toward the outside. Rust can also form along the outside corner where the floor meets the rocker panel. 98% of rust starts from the inside, so looking under the car won't tell you much, unless it has rusted through.

Thanks for the sage advice! I'll definitely know what to look for now...

Keep looking and don't be afraid to travel a bit or if a member is nearby, they might be able to have a look-see for you.
Bottom line...get as rust free as possible. The mechanicals are relatively easy to work on/figure out and there are plenty of parts available.

Thanks for the tips and links. Those cars in BC sure do look beautiful! Transporting it to Ontario would probably be about $1000. I can keep that in mind, but I'd be really nervous about buying something I hadn't seen and test driven...

Cheers,
phaetn

[fiat218]

but I'd be really nervous about buying something I hadn't seen and test driven... yes, ask me how i know that

[phaetn]

Had a look-see today in person.

I had real doubts from the outset because the seller was often hard to reach (didn't respond to e-mails, cell phone was the best way to contact him but it often wasn't answered or one time the voice-mailbox full). I'm not judging, but this didn't strike me as someone who -- for whatever reason -- paid a lot of attention to details and was too busy with other stuff in life to care too much about an old car. I'm not saying he's not a hard-working guy, just that I didn't have high expectations and that the car probably hadn't been a top priority for him.

I also suspected the photos, above, that were in his advert might be old (b/c of season) but also just had a hunch that they weren't reflective of the currently reality. I wasn't far wrong!

I did some digging around during the day speaking to two mechanics that have worked on cars for me before, figured out what they would or wouldn't saftey, got info for appraisals (req'd for old cars), arranged to get a dealer plate if I wanted a test drive, etc. before heading out to see the car. I also spoke to Milano's Auto Body (see Jay's post, above) which does work on Fiats in our Italian part of town. He told me to expect $500-$1000 to weld in a new floor pan, depending on what was there. He said some rust was normal, but if there weren't any holes then the rest would most likely be okay, too.

I get to the seller's on time. A family member is there to greet me (which I had been expecting) but she herself didn't know that I was coming. A phone call by her to confirm what to do. Upon opening the garage the first thing I notice is that there are numerous body work touch ups on the rear deck. Upon closer insepection I can see there's bubbling or bad patching near the boot lid seams on both sides, just behind the top. Not great, but I can live with that -- the car is old and not expensive.




Then as I walk around the car I notice the driver's front tire is very deflated -- yuk! Ok, so no chance for a spin unless I pump it with my own compressor and it will hold air. Clearly this guy isn't too interested in putting some time in to try and sell the car. My hopes are dropping precipitously because I know things can only get worse.

Despite a poor first impression, I get inside anyway. Dash looks good. Seats are quite decent. Open and close the top and it seems in good working order. Something wonky with the seatbelt recoil mechanism. Hmmm... Put in the key and hit the starter... nothing. Get out, look to the battery in the (messy) trunk and one terminal is disconnected. Put it on then go back to hit the starter again. One brief click and then nothing. Increasing frustration: So I can't even hear the engine!! Not good. There was another battery in the trunk, but I wasn't about to start switching leads about if the seller can't have bothered to have done it himself. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to walk away at this point just because of general neglect, but tires and a battery can be solved quickly enough as long as the car is decent.

It's not!

I took off three driver's mats because I was expecting some rust there, and found a huge gaping hold by the heel. I mean HUGE. Big enough to put my foot through!! The hole went all the way to the rocker and (naturally enough) all the metal around it was very weak, too. Had I kicked at it I could have probably fit two feet through! I immediately knew that I was done.

(more Fiat dungeon-pornoesque images at the Flickr site if you're into that sort of thing... ).

I muse if the whole floor pan can be replaced and the structural integrity still be okay; I look on the passenger's side just for giggles and find another small hole:


I didn't even bother to look anywhere else. Too much rust, too much neglect. Since I couldn't roll the car out of the garage I couldn't even see under it at the shock towers or front brake, and I didn't pull off any more carpeting to look closer to the firewall. I put everything back the way that I found it and politely said thanks.

At least I learned some stuff today about what I need to get done to buy an old car. It's a bit different than it was for my vintage bikes.

Another plus: At least the big dog that had barked at me when I first showed up and aggressively lunged at my arm didn't fully bear down with a bite. Now that would have been a series of holes that I would have been REALLY upset about.

Still on the hunt...

Here Spider, Spider.

Cheers,
phaetn

[TX82FIAT]

Good call walking away from that one. My guess is the car would have a host of other issues once you got into it. The availablity of these cars in working order with minimal issues should allow you to find a much better example at a reasonable price. When buying a Spider the best advice is to start with a good body and a car that is already running or that you can get running in under an hour with some diagnostics.