Lower Alignment Washers - Leave In or Take Out?

[srwilson]

I've read a few post that had a few comments on the subject but wanted to float the question out there.

From what I've gathered, the washers were added at the factory. The purpose being that they could be used to realign the front-end during the life of the car by removing and adding washers. However, this method didn't quite fit with the 'work smarter not harder' theory. Instead of round washers folks used 'U' shaped shims that could be installed without removal of the control arm.

So my current thought is to remove them. (I'm rebuilding the front-end as my winter project.)

Any thoughts?

[azruss]

If you remove them, keep track of which ones go where. You will need them again when you go to set camber and castor. Ask me how I know this

[4uall]

Ditto, having just done mine

[vandor]

Remove them - you can always add the U-shaped shims to replace them, but if you need less camber it's a pain to remove the round washers.

[focodave]

Remove them - you can always add the U-shaped shims to replace them, but if you need less camber it's a pain to remove the round washers.

Csaba, you mean "if you need more camber, it's a pain to remove the round washers"

[81SPIDERMATT]

I am confused.... does the original poster have round washers now ??? if yes then remove them for sure... if they are the u shaped ones AND the alignment was fine to start with ... why would you not put them back in and let the alignment guys make that decision ???? kuz when your done with the project ..your going to a good shop I hope for alignment right??

[vandor]

>Csaba, you mean "if you need more camber, it's a pain to remove the round washers"

Yes, you are right. Sorry, I think in 'negative camber', as I always try to get some negative camber in the front suspension.
So yes, the fewer the shims, the more positive the camber becomes.

I've seen Spiders that had all the shims removed and still had a lot of negative camber. Not a good situation.

[srwilson]

Yes, I have round washers and not U shaped shims. And I will be taking it to have it aligned when I'm done.

As suggested I have saved the washers in 4 labeled baggies for each bolt. Not a big difference between any of them. They were 6.5, 6, 5, & 5mm thicknesses.

When I take it in for alignment should I direct them for a certain camber or caster values?

[81SPIDERMATT]

I found this

Front suspension settings my FIAT Factory Service Manual:
total toe= .12" ± .039"
camber -.5° ± .5°
caster + 3.5° ± .5° (I think +2.5° is more reasonable here... less tire scrub)

doing an advanced search on " alignment " or "alignment settings" will bring up lots of good reading ....

I will also mention that certain things need to be tightened with the full weight of the car on the suspension... alignment also will be better if car is weighted with a few hundred pounds at time of alignment

[srwilson]

Thanks for the info!! I value the opinions and advise greatly.

You've got to love these winter projects.

[81SPIDERMATT]

mine is a daily driver so winter means careful driving.... fiat in the snow is like a go-cart on the ice .. fortunately everything I REALLY need I can walk to.... but yes projects are fun... one of the best things I did was going thru and freshening up my front suspension.. rebuilt A arms ... new tie rods and ball joint ... sport springs and shocks... never knew what I was missing till it was all done ... good luck with your project .... those specs I just copied and pasted from another thread .... hopefully others smarter than me will chime in and confirm or give better details.... after it is all done and aligned if something does not "feel" right ... do not hesitate to take it back and say "nope" do it again ... it aint right ... a good shop will get it dialed in even if it takes a couple of times up on the machine ..... Matt

[vandor]

The factory camber spec is +0.5, +-0.5 degrees. NOT negative 0.5.

>Front suspension settings my FIAT Factory Service Manual:
>total toe= .12" ± .039"
>camber -.5° ± .5°
>caster + 3.5° ± .5° (I think +2.5° is more reasonable here... less tire scrub)

[srwilson]

Csaba, that agrees with my book as well.

I think I'll just take my manual in with me when I take it in for alignment. Just need to find a capable shop!