She won't start... Fuel related possible...?

[wizard124]

If the flapper is free but does not move when cranking, then you have a major leak in the air intake system.

[Holshot]

it's possible an owner ran a separate circuit to power the pump but it also could be the flap in the afm doesn't close completely or someone "adjusted" the afm and the pump switch is closed all of the time. You'll need to do some inspection and test the circuit in the afm. You really should download a copy of the FI manual to help with diagnosis

Hey Mark, I just re-read my thread and saw your recommendation regarding someone possibly "adjusting" the AFM... If you happen to read this thread again can you take a look at the pic of the AFM I've included and let me know if the arm is supposed to be straight like I have bent it to disrupt the switch... After the black top popped off and when I first saw the arm it was at the 12:00 position making no contact with anything and now I've bent it to the 1:00/2:00 position to break the contact of those two terminals which then cured my constant fuel pump running issue I had with the key in the ignition and turned to the accessory position.

[majicwrench]

Methinks you are way too hung up on AFM. If pump is running as you say it is, it should spray enough fuel thru CSI while cranking to at least fire up. And/or introduce some fuel into intake and then see if it fires.
Pull CSI, crank motor, it should spray fuel. If not, crack line at CSI see if fuel pressure is there. If fuel there, remove connector, check for pwer on on wire w key on. Get back to us.
Keith

[bradartigue]

Have to agree here, halt all activity. Work methodically and don't focus on "gettin' her to start" as a goal. She will start if all of the stuff is working, so make testing all of the test and verify that it works the goal.

- Fix the fuel leaks

- Ignore the fuel pump wiring. It works, so fuel is going into the system.

- Get a battery operated multi-meter (not a voltmeter or some other cheap, non-powered device)

- Make sure everything is hooked up right (big air hose, little hoses, etc. all need to be in the right places and not leaking air)

- Test the fuel injection circuits. I can send you a test diagnostic from Bosch if you don't have or can't follow what I published. These test both the AFM and the ECU and the components. When issues are found replace the broken pars.

- Verify the ignition timing is correct.

- Verify your fuel is gas and not old varnish.

- Start the car

Or something like that. But don't fart around with the AFM, there isn't anything in there you can fix. Your picture shows what looks like a clean AFM, leave it alone. Test with voltmeter, replace bad parts, run car....

[So Cal Mark]

yes, the arm should break those contacts with the flap closed. But that flap should be fluctuating open when the engine cranks. As advised, if the flap isn't moving there is a major air leak or no compression. Have you checked to see if the injectors are pulsing when cranking? It's real common to have stuck injectors if the car has sat for awhile. At this point, you really need to start with the basic fi tests and pressure is the first step

[wizard124]

Here are a couple of pics of my working AFM. These might show the detail you need.

[Holshot]

Thanks Brad! I have been slowly but surely checking things off one by one but I think I'm going to need a lesson on how to read those wiring schematics and how to use my multimeter. Do you give video tutorials...? lol I don't know where the dial should be, ect... I have been able to check a few things like making sure each injector is firing, fuel pump, spark, timing but that's about it so far. One thing I did do over the weekend was remove the turbo kit components as I had a sneaking suspicion that another issue was the intake plumbing was a large source of an air leak which I've come to understand will also hurt and hinder the starting.

Well, my suspicions were realized when everything was finally off. The intake tube was duct taped onto the turbo inlet and had numerous splits and breaks which would have caused major air leaks and hurt my chances of the proper suction of the AFM to activate properly. Also, after inspecting the turbo I noticed that even though there was no real shaft play to speak of there was quite a bit of drag when manually spinning the turbo. Now I've had a lot of experience in the turbo world and they usually spin much more freely so I'm assuming that after sitting for so many years that the bearings maybe gunked up or cooked another possible reason for not allowing it to spin easily enough to help introduce the proper amount of "suck" to pull the AFM open. I'm in the process of sourcing some parts to convert her to NA temporarily. I'm kicking myself in the butt for not saving all my old parts from my other cars, lol...

Thanks Mark! It's nice to know that my reasoning was correct in assuming that the silver arm is supposed to break the contact of those two copper post. I'm still going to plug along and figure this thing out and now that I've got the turbo out of the equation and now just waiting on some tune up parts, ie. plugs, wires, cap, rotor, temp. sensor ect... And the afore mentioned NA parts to get her back to stock.

THANKS Wizard!!! I've been trying to find a nice close up shot like that and finally someone posted one up! I went to google and searched but nothing clear like pic came up so thanks so much because it puts my mind at ease now.

Thanks again to everyone for their input and help and as soon as I've got some new news to share I'll post up...

[Holshot]

Well after attending a local DC Fiat gathering over the weekend I got a little more motivation to go work on the car... It also helped that all my tune up parts finally arrived and there was a break in the bone chilling weather. After swapping out the plugs, wires, cap, rotor and the coolant temp sensor I thought I would give it a shot and crank her over. To no avail she still just cranks away never trying to turn over. Now I was able to test my AFM on another car that ran and that's not the problem which was a relief and one less thing to have to worry about.

So after scratching my head for awhile I decide to take a break and run to the parts store for some starter fluid. I should have probably done this first but hind site is 50/50 as they say. So I pulled the intake tube off sprayed a little fluid in and she came to life! I finally heard her run and she sounded good and healthy... What a relief but still haven't been able to track down the problem just narrowed it down some. Now I suppose the problem has to be fuel related and not electronic like I was convinced of earlier with the AFM or other gizmos. So now it's a matter of figuring out where in the fuel dilevery the problem lies, any suggestions on how to test the individual systems? Tricks to the trade so to speak, I'm all ears...

[bradartigue]

I'm watching a show called "Gas Monkey." If they were working on your car they'd replace the engine three times before it ran once. Don't be a Gas Monkey, don't cut corners. There are no tricks. If you don't have a shop manual, get one. Bosch FI isn't hard to diagnose, but you have to do it methodically. If the car ran on starter fluid then you know you have spark. One thing eliminated. You just don't know if the spark is happening at the right time, or much else...so here goes:

Take a systemic approach, this is what I'd do with any FIAT that won't start on its own but starts on spray:

0) It needs good, fresh fuel.
1) Check the timing belt position. The engine at TDC should have both cams aligned with their pointers.
2) Check the ignition timing. At TDC the rotor should be pointing at the #4 wire position on the cap.
3) Remove the AFM black plastic cap.
4) Put the key in the run position (not start, run)
5) Rotate the AFM, you should hear the fuel pump engage. Release, the pump should turn off.

Then, shop manual stuff:

6) Test fully the dual relay. It may simply be bad and not turning on the injector pulse.
7) Check the fuel rail pressure first -or- check to see if each injector is firing (the shop manual uses a glass jar and someone to crank, someone to watch). High pressure fuel here, don't smoke, don't spark, disconnect the distributor, etc.
If that didn't fix it, move on to other stuff...methodically.

It *will* be the last thing you check (of course).
It *will not* be the O2 sensor or the aux air regulator (though the AAR can make it run poorly when cold, it isn't going to keep it from starting)

[Holshot]

Thanks Brad, I'm going to do my best to pull the number 1 injector next to see while it's cranking if it's spraying. I have a feeling that the injectors may not be firing. I've tried to tell by pulling plugs but they were covered in the oil that I had dropped into each cylinder to help protect the cylinder walls after sitting so long and it was hard to tell if they were wet from fuel or oil to be honest.

Now that I got it to fire with the starting fluid that may have burnt off any oil left in the cylinders and now I might be able to see the plug a little better and if there is fuel getting to the cylinder. I also have a spare dual relay that I can swap out to try that... I've already checked the AFM as I mentioned before on another car and again I've seen with my eyes that the AFM opens while cranking and the fuel pump is energizing while cranking. One quick question about the dual relay, when the key is first turned to the ON position before trying to crank and I hear a "click" coming from the passenger side under the dash. Is that the dual relay that I'm hearing by any chance?

I was under the impression with that click I was hearing the dual relay activating/firing and why I haven't bothered swapping it out just yet because I was assuming it was opening and closing properly. Am I right or wrong with that assertion and would you swap it out regardless? Thanks again and I really appreciate you checking in and trying to help!

[majicwrench]

Getting #1 inj out is a hassle, crack line at CSIfuel should spray. Does it?? Have you actually checked fuel pressure??
"Swap out dual relay"----quit swapping parts. Check some things.
Keith

[wizard124]

I would guess that "click" is for the engine light in the center of the dash. I don't hear the double relay when I turn my key.

Since you have determined the AFM is working......Then go back to the fuel delivery electronics. With the key in start position, this should directly energize the fuel pump. As she cranks and the AFM flapper opens this should trigger the relay to also energize the fuel pump so that when the key returns to the run position the fuel pump stays running. Are you getting fuel to the fuel rail? If you have fuel pressure but the engine won't run ( you know you have ignition now) then the ECU isn't energizing the injectors.......Bad ECU? Bad coolant temp sensor? Bad injectors? Broken wires?

I think you are closing in on success! Check readings at the ECU. Troubleshoot !

[Holshot]

Ok, some more progress was made today and for a brief moment I was doing the happy dance as I swapped out the dual relay and she started up! I only let it run for a few seconds since there is no exhaust and radiator on the car. I was of course over joyed with the fact I had finally sourced the no start issue and could now focus on finishing up with the tune parts, ie. new timing belt, water pump, radiator, acc belt, pulley, ect... Then moving onto installing the exhaust manifold that John Erskine was so kind enough to had lent me until I get all my turbo components sorted which would then allow me to at least start to drive her around and enjoy her.

Well, that joy was short lived... After doing the happy dance I then started the task of trying to instal the exhaust manifold which still had the down pipe attached. I couldn't for life of me snake it through as an entire combo so off comes the down pipe only to snap the remaining 5 bolts off, the sixth was already broken. So now I can't bolt the exhaust manifold on and let the car run a little longer. Well after suffering that defeat I decided that I needed the sound of her purring even if for only a brief moment to liven my spirit once again but we were back to crank, crank, crank... I suppose that there must have been just enough starter fluid left from yesterday to get her to start that first time and must have burnt off on the initial start up.

So know I'm back to the no starting issue and 6 broken studs that aren't coming out of the exhaust manifold with all the heat I could throw at with my blow torch. To answer some of your recommendations Brad:

0-new gas tank with half tank of fresh fuel, all lines were disconnected and blown out with high pressure air hose
1-have checked that the timing is correct by lining up both points on the cam gears and the crank pulley
2-haven't had a chance to do this yet
3-removed
4-done
5-done and done and as mentioned the AFM ran fine on another car so I've ruled that out

As to the shop manual stuff:

6-I was fortunate to have a few given to me to test once again from John Erskine, not to mention prior to knowing that John had a few laying around to lend me I had ordered a new one and none solved the problem so it's not the dual relay.
7-I know that I've got fuel at the rail, now I don't know if in fact it's the right pressure yet as I don't own a gauge/tools to perform this just yet.

Now just a reminder, one of the first issues I found with the car was a blown/melted fuel pump fuse and the holder, the one that's under the drivers side dash under the fuse panel. Any ideas on what would have caused such a catostrophic melt down...? Possibly a bad pump? Maybe it's the pump all along and given the fact that I can hear it run and see fuel at the rail but maybe I don't have the correct pressure. I'm just curious now what would have made that thing burn up like that...?

I tried to pull the first injector but realized that wasnt possible, seems that all 4 will need to come out as there is not enough give to pull just one at a time for testing. Now time ran short so I didn't have time to pull the complete rail or even the cold start injector or pull the cap/rotor to check that either. Hopefully I get some time tomorrow to check some of these other things. Not to mention at that point I had killed the battery so back to the battery tender it went so that tomorrow she lives to crank again lol... I'm starting to run out of things to test and I'm starting to get worried that this thing is going to drive me nuts. Hopefully I find out soon what it is or worst case scenario it has to get towed to a shop which I really don't want to have to and not for financial reasons. I really, really wanted to get this running on my own but that's might not be in the cards

Thanks again guys for all the help and recommendations! I don't know what I would do without all the help and support from you guys and I have taken your advice and methodically checking things off one by one but their aren't to many things left to check so hopefully it will rear its ugly head eventually.

[majicwrench]

Don't bother checking cap and rotor. You've had it "running" several times so you know the basics are there--spark, compression, cam and ignition timing.
If you have any questions about spark ( and you should) just hook up a timing lite and aim it at the windshield, anytime you are cranking engine you can instantly verify spark.

You say you know you have fuel at rail, how do you know?? And while knowing the exact pressure would be nice, it could quite low and car would still likely start from CSI.

LIsten to us sometimes, did I not say #1 inj a pain to remove?? Learn to save your strength, energy and knuckles and move in a straight line and not zig zagging all over the place.
Keith

[Holshot]

Hey Majic, I cracked the line at the regulator and fuel was present as it sprayed out everywhere... I'm going to try and stop by a parts store and see if I can pick up a fuel pressure gauge that I can run inline to check pressure. As far as listening I think I have done just that. Everyone's recommendations have been checked off one by one... I don't think there was a list of what should be done in a specific order so I'm doing things as I can with what I have to work with and sometimes those things are dictated by when I can have a hand. Some things require a second person cranking while I look at things and check. If there is a sequence written somewhere or a step by step procedure that is better to follow please feel free to post it up and I'll start all over if that matters?

Again, I'm doing my best checking things off as recommended but as of now I still haven't found the gremlin lurking about reeking havoc on my baby and in my head, lol... I did however find a local machine shop that said for about 125 bucks they will pull the broken studs out and if need be re-thread. Hopefully it doesn't go much more then that because I can source another for less or buy an after market header for a few more. I'm headed over now to drop it off now and they said it will be ready tomorrow so at least I'll have the manifold mounted by the weekend giving some semblance of accomplishment I'm still in it and refuse to give up just yet. Worst case scenario it has to get towed to a shop and let them have a go at it but I really want to become self sufficient and the only way is to be able diagnose the issue myself with the help of course all you you guys!

Kind Regards