She won't start... Fuel related possible...?

[Holshot]

Hey guys, I finally got some time today to get a new battery and try starting the newly acquired project. For those who are not familiar with me, I just picked up a '82 Turbo Spider but bought it basically sight unseen with the guarantee that it was just a bad fuel pump. Well, I put the new battery in and she cranks but I didn't hear the fuel pump prime or kick on. I decided to run a direct power source to the pump off the battery and she kicks ons and runs well.

After doing some searching I found the fuse under the dash blown/melted in the fuse holder. Just to see what would happen I had a 10A fuse holder that I swapped in to see what would happen and I realize that it calls for a 16A but I thought just to see if it would get the fuel pump to click on and if so I would swap it out with the proper wiring and fuse holder. Well after wrestling with the wiring I was able to get it swapped out and when I turn the key the pump started pumping like a champ but then I noticed that fuel was pumping out all over the ground.

So I pop my head under the car and see the rubber hose coming out of the fuel filter was split and just spewing out... Now I guess with all that fuel pumping out and not making its way with the correct fuel pressure the car will not start but my issue is in my research and reading I was under the impression that the fuel pump should not come on with the key in the accessory position. It shouldn't start pumping until the key is turned and the car starts cranking or at least that's what I've understood in my reading. If that is in fact the case what would be causing the fuel pump to run all the time in the accessory position? Or is it possible that because it's been sitting for so long that it was just trying to prime the line with the correct pressure before shutting back off but couldn't since there was a split in the line and puring out the filter.

Regardless, tomorrow I hope to have sometime to address the fuel filter and line and have that fixed but I was hoping that someone could chime in and let me know if the fuel pump should be running like that with the key on the accessory position. I will be amazed if in fact after all these years it sat all because a simple fuse. Thanks for any insight and does anyone know know a way to crank the car over a few times to build oil pressure to get everything lubricated before trying to get it started. It's been sitting for the past 5 years and want to avoid wiping out the bearings...

Kind Regards,
Giuseppe

[bradartigue]

First off, you know the pump works so replace the lines and the filter. At the very least make the thing safe.

If you have a fuel beyond a small drip then it is unlikely to develop enough pressure to spray, and fuel is just recirculating through the system. Injectors take about 30psi to work, a leak dumping fuel on the ground is going to relieve too much pressure (and possibly burn you).

The pump should not work if the engine is not running. Many people bypassed this by running a wire from one of the dual relay leads to another one (and I don't know, or care, which they are, because doing this bypasses the few safety features FIAT put in there). There is no pre-priming, nothing like that. When air enters the AFM, the flap turns, a rod actuates a small circuit, and the pump turns on.

Get the basics sorted, no leaks, the pump comes on, good... then try to start her up.

[Holshot]

Yeah, that's basically my trane of thought as well. Tomorrow I plan on replacing the filter and line and try and get her to start again. I was just hoping to find out for sure if the pump should be running with the key on the accessory position. If it is running like that then how or why is it and how should I go about making work correctly... Like I mentioned maybe it's just running now because there's no pressure in the line?

[So Cal Mark]

it's possible an owner ran a separate circuit to power the pump but it also could be the flap in the afm doesn't close completely or someone "adjusted" the afm and the pump switch is closed all of the time. You'll need to do some inspection and test the circuit in the afm. You really should download a copy of the FI manual to help with diagnosis

[Holshot]

Thanks Mark, I was hoping that you or Beek who seem to be the resident gurus' on the forum would chime in. After I swap out the fuel filter and line tomorrow and it still does it I'll start where you recommended. The wiring at the pump is stock and I don't see anything oblivious under the hood, if in fact that's where the a separate circuit would be wired in, so maybe the issue is with the AFM. If you follow up with this thread any recommendation as to getting the motor and more importantly the turbo well lubricated before really try to crank this over repeatedly trying to get her to fire? I'm worried that after sitting for 5 years that it maybe dry and wipe the bearings out...

[wizard124]

Finding a blown fuse would worry me. I would spend the time to check factory wiring or try to discover how its been altered. One other possibility could be a stuck relay. Download the artigue.com wiring diagram. Not having it in front of me. When the key goes to the START position, the pump is hot. When the AFM flap opens, it energizes the fuel pump relay which keeps the fuel pump running as the key goes back to the RUN position. If someone jumped the relay, you would probably find it at the relay or ignition switch.

On the lubrication,: with the fuel pump disconnected or coil wire pulled, remove the spark plugs ( pour a bit of oil in each cylinder to let soak). When ready, crank the starter. Without compression, you should be able to circulate oil thru the motor fairly well. You might even detect some pressure on the gage.

[So Cal Mark]

if you're going to lubricate the cylinders before cranking, use ATF rather than oil. ATF will burn, oil will foul the spark plugs.

[rlux4]

Having the dual relay/fuel pump circuit bypassed is a common "fix" when the inline fuse to the dual relay blows. It's what is done when someone in the past couldn't or wouldn't go to the trouble of learning the system and identifying the components and their functions. You won't find the bypass near the pump or under the hood, it'll be at the dual relay which is on a tray under the glove compartment, unless someone ran a hot wire from the ign. switch to the pump or green with black wire to the pump which originates at the dual relay. Here's the link to Brad Arigue's manual which has a section on the FI system identifying the components and their function;
http://www.artigue.com/fiatcontent/Arti ... 124_MM.pdf
And his wiring diagrams page;
http://www.artigue.com/fiatcontent/Wiring_1980_1982.pdf
Ron

[majicwrench]

You first question has already been answered, No, the pump should not run till the engine is cranking or running. As was stated, someone has likley modified wiring. Car will likley run like it is, but as was mentioned it is a safety issue having pump run all the time key on.
As far as lubricating it, just pull the coil wire from cap and ground it somewhere. Pull plugs dribble a small amount of something ( atf, wd 40, marvel mystery oil etc) into cylinders, replace plugs. Now crank engine over for a 10=15 seconds. That will pump oil around system. Now fire her up.
Keith

[Holshot]

Ok, got the leak taken care but she still wouldn't start. She cranks and sounds healthy with good pulses but no fire. I pulled each plug and see spark at each plug/coil. Now some people had mentioned the AFM, I noticed the the black top plastic cover had some RTV around it and had the idea to pull the thing off to see if the flapper would move while turning the key. After flipping the AFM over the cover popped off. It's apparent that someone has had their hands in this thing.

So having someone turn the key the pump came on immediately like before getting to the start position and still no movement of the flapper, turn the key all the way trying to start nothing. So I'm standing there and I'm looking at this thing and something just didn't look right. In the pic below there was a silver arm that was bent and not making contact with anything. I then noticed close to the end of this silver arm there were two brass/copper contacts making contact.

Something told me to break that connection to see what would happen, so I turn the car onto the accessory position before trying to fully start the car and the pump was running. I spread the two contacts apart with the key on and the pump stopped running! Let go and she starts running the fuel pump again. So I bent the rod straight, as seen in the pics below, and now she makes contact with the outer brass/copper contact so now the two do not touch and the fuel pump no longer runs on accessory. I tried turning the key all the way but nothing. If I stumbled onto the correct setting for that silver arm and it supposed to break the contact then what ever is supposed to turn that dial on its own isn't doing it.

I guess the next thing to try would be a different AFM... Now I guess I have to try and source one but I got a feeling this is going to get expensive swapping out things one at a time. Just to clarify, is the flapper in inside the AFM supposed to move when the key is turned to the on or start position? And if it doesn't then is that a sure sign that the AFM is bad or does something else tell the AFM to do its thing first? I'm at a loss here and no regretting my decision. I was really after a carb car to get away from all the complications with the Fiat FI as I'm a good wrench turner and can R&R anything but fall short when it comes to being able to diagnos electrical gremlins. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks guys...

[BEEK]

car turns over good, and wont start:

1. check fuel pressure
2. check spark
3. check compression
4. check timing, cam and ignition

i assume that all the above has been done

the next place i would go is the injectors, they will stick when they had fuel in them and sat for a long time,

myself, i use 12v and an old injector plug and excite the injector manually. by brushing the wire across a battery terminal. if the injector clicks, then go to the next one, and keep going until all of them click, if you cant make one click, it has frozen. once you get them all working the car should run, if all of the other variables are correct. after i was happy with the fact that it runs, i would pull the injectors and have them cleaned professionally.

are the plugs wet when you pull them after the no start?

[majicwrench]

The flap won't move till you actually have engine spinning over and sucking air. Which you probably know, just making sure. If flap not moving when cranking.....do you have compression??

[Holshot]

car turns over good, and wont start:

1. check fuel pressure
2. check spark
3. check compression
4. check timing, cam and ignition

i assume that all the above has been done

the next place i would go is the injectors, they will stick when they had fuel in them and sat for a long time,

myself, i use 12v and an old injector plug and excite the injector manually. by brushing the wire across a battery terminal. if the injector clicks, then go to the next one, and keep going until all of them click, if you cant make one click, it has frozen. once you get them all working the car should run, if all of the other variables are correct. after i was happy with the fact that it runs, i would pull the injectors and have them cleaned professionally.

are the plugs wet when you pull them after the no start?

Thanks Beek, I'll give the injector test a shot, that is something I could do easily. I'm still wondering if there is a problem with the AFM though. Could you or someone comment on whether or not that silver "arm" is supposed to make contact with the outside brass/copper looking arm, the way it's pictured above? I ask only because now that I've bent that silver arm to not let the two touch the fuel pump no longer runs constant like before. If it is in fact correct now the next problem I have is with it that way when cranking the fuel pump is no longer running unless I physically spin that dial/gear counterclockwise which then cause the two copper things to make contact and energizing the pump.

[Holshot]

The flap won't move till you actually have engine spinning over and sucking air. Which you probably know, just making sure. If flap not moving when cranking.....do you have compression??

Hey Maj, I have what appears to be good compression from the pulses that are coming out when I pulled the plugs. The motor sounds very healthy and turns rather effortlessly while trying to crank. I have not done an actual compression test with a gauge though. The fact that this thing looks to have been fussed with previously leads me to believe that someone tried to fix an issue and perhaps bent that silver arm to get the fuel pump to run all the time thinking that there problem was that the fuel pump would not kick on but the real problem may lie in that the flap does not move on its own to move the arm on its own. The flap on my AFM doesn't seem to move one way or the other when cranking. I'm thinking, again me just trying to approach this with some logic and with no experience with an AFM prior to this that if I have bent that rod correctly and disrupted the circuit so that the fuel pump no longer runs continuously withe key in the accessory position then possibly what ever is supposed to energize or move that dial/gear is the culprit, thus requiring a new AFM....? The search continues... I hoping that I can find someone local that may have a spare that I could swap out to test it.

[wizard124]

Slow down! Download those electric diagrams and troubleshoot the wiring.
The engine cranks...so the ignition switch seems OK, the pump should work. Does it? The fuel pump relay is not in play. If the fuel pump does not work then start tracing the electrics.

With the key in run, and the flapper on the AFM depressed, the pump should run. Does it? If not, trace the circuit. If the relay is bad, it wont close the circuit and power the pump. Search on here to locate a picture/ description of a proper functioning AFM ( sorry, i cant help you with contacts and arms). Neither the AFM nor the pump relay are inexpensive, a multimeter is!

When i brought my car home, i suspected my electrical to be a mess. No wipers, no flashers, no heater fan, bad alternator with warning light,funky 4 strand wire under the dash ( mine was running however), no panel on the passenger side with relays dangling. I dremel brushed the fuse panel, I checked for functioning ignition contacts, and traced the circuits. I found a bad connector with a contact pushed back ( with evidence of arcing). Turns out my wiring was good, just switches and simple motors needed to be taken apart and cleaned. Hoping yours will be a similar experience