need a little guideance with a turbo spider

[ngrybrd]

Hello All,
just got an 82 turbo i want to remove the turbo so i can get the engine running and tuned up before any exhaust tries to spin it. the car sat for 20 years and since the turbo is going to be the hardest part of the restoration, i want to do everything i can to keep it from turning into junk. so ill clean it up and rebuild it before reinstalling it later. does any one with a turbo spider have experience removing it? i just want to make sure i cover all my bases and not miss something and break anything while pulling it out. also, because there are extra boost enrichment etc switches that tell the ecu to send more fuel, does that mean my ecu is not a standard fiat 2000 ecu? if thats the case, will the engine not work without the turbo hooked up, and also finding an ECU thats turbo specific will be harder then finding a replacement turbo i would think.

so far ive got the air intake and compressor discharge plenum (as the turbo manual calls it) removed and the heat shield off of the exhaust manifold, i can feel three bolts holding the turbo to the exhaust manifold (two in the front side, one in the back left, but the one in the back left keeps spinning?!?!) it looks like the turbine section also has a bracket going to the frame and it also looks like the waste gate is bolted to the frame. this doesnt seem right, because the turbo is hard mounted to the exhaust manifold, i would think engine movement would eventually cause damage. then ill need to disconnect the exhaust pipe and the oil feel lines. and lastly, what is the black cable or line running into the turbo on the top side near the turbo the black is chipped off and it looks like a braided cable kinda like a throttle style cable. it could he a hose too though, not sure? ( in the picture its the black line curling towards the left) i cant figure it out with the manual. anyways, heres a pictures of the area, maybe any of you who've done it before can offer some input.

[narfire]

Wow...a fair bit of corrosion eh. Might want to consider taking the exhaust manifold off and remove everything at once. When on the bench, you could use penetrating fluid/heat to help with any bolts that are corroded. I'm thinking a few might twist off. Do you have access to a mig welder? (welded nut trick to remove any broken studs/bolts).

Personally, looking at the corrosion on the valve covers, I would be considering looking real close at the rest of the engine as well. Can you get the engine to rotate? Some(little) ATF in each cylinder helps .
Water pump and coolant passages could be corroded and plugged.
You might have a bit of work to get it sorted , but glad you chose a Fiat, easy to work on and plenty of parts out there..
Good luck with the project.
Chris

[ngrybrd]

thanks narfire, i hadnt thought of taking off everything right up to the block. good idea. ya the car sat for 20 years, couldnt beat the price though the story is on my "new members post"

http://fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24327

yes i do a bit of welding, i cant afford projects that arnt rusty, lol so im very familiar with the welded nut trick. with the right combination of penetrating lube and heat i havent had to drill out a stud yet... knock on wood.

i put a battery in and hot wired it (guy lost the keys years ago) and she turned over just fine after a little wd40 in a few places. it even cranked with a little starting fluid and idled for about 5 seconds off of it, so my main focus has to be cleaning up the corrosion and then tackling the fuel system piece by piece.

anyone have any pics of a good looking stock engine so i know how to clean things up. im thinking of painting or polishing the aluminum but id like an idea of how its supposed to look when its not all chalky.

as far as easy to work on though, i think yes and no. it seems you cant get to anything low, without removing everything higher up in its way, and im going to have to buy a set of crows feet for my socket wrench or get a set of stubby box wrenches i have yet to get more then two clicks of movement out of a socket or get a full swing on a box wrench on any bolt in the engine bay. (i dont have a clue how anyone can tighten the distributor hold down the way that massive bolt head is in there that close to the firwall and the distributor itself) im used to muscle car engine bays where you can fit a fiat engine in front of and to the sides of the motor thats in there... plenty of wrenching room on those.

[BEEK]

if you are planning to put the turbo back in the future, leave the electronics alone. they will not effect anything when in a no boost condition. you will need the rubber hose that goes between the air flow meter and the upper intake. and an exhaust manifold and down pipe.

but if the turbo spins freely, just leave it alone and go for it. with 6 lbs of boost, it doesnt make enough to hurt anything. I have owned 2 turbo spiders in my life.

[ngrybrd]

so thats all i need to run it as a non turbo car? easy enough. ya i want to take it off just in case it doesn't spin freely, i don't want to have a scenario where exhaust pressure builds and tries to spin it when it can't and end up destroying the turbo. id like to clean it up and get it looking pretty at least and know that it spins. then get the car running right before i reinstall the turbo. i talked to a gentlemen in CT that has had several and he said finding a working legend turbo for sale, if not impossible, you could buy a regular fiat in decent driving shape for the same money, so do everything you can to avoid hurting it.

[BEEK]

the turbo unit is a warner ishi rhb6, it is a very common turbo in heavy industry 20 -30 years ago, parts to rebuild it are cheap and simple to do. there are much better modern turbo's that im sure could be easily modified to fit and work with little fabrication

[ngrybrd]

oh that's good to know, i was under the impression that "legend" turbos were just what the company put on fiats and deloreans and very hard to find. but searching for the warner i found all sorts of parts and even a few listed for sale that makes me a little less concerned if its junk. in terms of modern turbos, what should i consider doing to the motor to make it more robust if i were to go that route? i guess the engine already has slightly lower compression then a stock 1995cc so it can take the boost but is there any other tricks i can do to bump it up a bit?

that brings up another question, value-wise, would changing and modernizing it a bit hurt the value of it being a real turbo car? i dont know much about it but i think they are supposedly a little on the rarer side of fiats so is there more value in keeping it original? then again i may be wrong. im just running on the assumption that it seems i cant find any info them, other then a company in NJ put turbos on some when they came off the boat. and that alot of people had the turbos removed because they didnt maintain them properly and there were alot of failures. thats really all i know. any estimate as to how many exist today in their original configuration?

[BEEK]

there is absolutly no internal difference in the turbo spider than the regular 2000 efi motor. they just did a bolt on application. the same cams, compression ratio, which is 8-1 anyway, great for turbocharging. a modern turbo adaptation with modern knock sensor and electronics and an intercooler im sure the fiat bottom end could handle 16-20 pounds of boost, maybe forged pistons, but mitsubishi does it with cast pistons.

[BEEK]

there is no way to track which cars were original turbo cars. so anyone could make a turbo spider using the parts that legend industries did and would have a turbo spider. the only tell-tale thing i would say is the emission label on the cowl, the turbo cars are different and in the door jam there is a tag saying that it was modified. but a repaint could wipe out those stickers too.

[ngrybrd]

thanks for all the info beek. i had seen one thing mentioning them changing to thicker head gaskets to drop the CR a little they mentioned 7-7.5 to 1 which seems like a big gain for gasket thickness. but seeing that only in one place out of the several ive seen that say exactly as you did debunks it a bit. so i typically take everything with a grain of salt until i here a consistency. unless i read it wrong and someone mentioned that they put on a thicker head gasket themselves?? i dunno, things blend together at 1 am when youve been reading up on something as much as i have.

anyways my car has the cowl tag and the door jamb sticker. the paint is definitely not original so i dont know about the decals. but like you said anyone can get the turbo, and wheels and call it a real fiat turbo. i even stumbled on turbo decals on one parts website. so given the lack of real proof does that mean the rarity of there havening been only about 700 doesnt actually effect the value as much as this kind of rarity in other cars? if you have a one of 700 in somthing like amuscle car the value quadruples. if thats the case, seeing how much a modern turbo set up down the line would be make it a quick little car. then either sell off the parts to recoup some of my investment or save them to return it to the original way it came if i want to sell it down the road.

[BEEK]

back when these were new, i worked at a fiat dealership as a mechanic. i actually bought a turbo spider, which was a dealer demo, i have had these apart from day one till now. at one point i owned over 200 fiats, and had a fiat / lancia salvage yard. i probably parted out 5000 or so fiats in my time. sold new parts as well as restored hundreds too. Not that i am the end all knowledge as many will try and rebut what i say. i just have seen many and worked on many and am whats left of a factory trained fiat mechanic. somewhere i have all my certificates from the factory schools in jacksonville fl.

anyway, the headgasket was the same as the non turbo too. i agree that having an original will make it worth something more. unfortunatly the factory brakes were not up to par for the turbo, in my opinion, i cooked mine all the time.

[ngrybrd]

Thats a pretty awesome background! i like finding someone with a real knowledge base who can help. theres too many people these days with what id call "keyboard Credentials" they dont know anything, assume too much and feel free to share their "facts" with the world. you see them all the time on generic boards, like an all encompassing car forum or something. thats why i like brand/model specific because its where people like yourself hangout and can actually offer something useful. so i absolutely appreciate what you can offer me. and im sure ill be bugging you a bit of the course of this build.

so youre the perfect person to ask, is a set of stubby wrenches and a set of crows feet a wise purchase? the engine bay just seems so tight for normal ratchets and wrenches. are there any tools you think i should'nt be without for this build?

as for brakes, is it a matter of geting the thicker finned modern style rotors or are the stock style pads the issue? i know there a big problem with calipers locking up too. its there a better style caliper you can recommend that will bolt on? or at least fit inside the rim that i can make an adapter bracket to mount? i was thinking something newer either modern fiat brakes or something modern but small like my wife's ford focus has. i was lookin at those, the thin little rotors seems really subpar for a vehicle thats supposed to be the performance model.

oops kind of got off my own topic there. when i get closer to working on the brakes ill do the research and start a new topic if i have questions.

[BEEK]

mark has a great brake kit for this car, uses new fiat 500 vented rotors and calipers and pads, he has fabricated mounting brackets and has hoses. the parts are priced right too.

http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... it#p179332

[Holshot]

there is absolutly no internal difference in the turbo spider than the regular 2000 efi motor. they just did a bolt on application. the same cams, compression ratio, which is 8-1 anyway, great for turbocharging. a modern turbo adaptation with modern knock sensor and electronics and an intercooler im sure the fiat bottom end could handle 16-20 pounds of boost, maybe forged pistons, but mitsubishi does it with cast pistons.

Hey Beek,

I always thought there were some added electronics for the Legend Turbo cars...? I always remember seeing additional don't know exactly what there were or called modules, electronics, thinga magiggies on the drivers side that I never saw on any of my non turbo spiders. If I'm not mistaken they were used for timing retard when the car went into boost perhaps? I've always dreamed of owning a turbo Spider but still haven't found the one for me. Would love to know more about them if you can chime in...

[BEEK]

there are added electronics, there are resistors added which at certain pressures add resistance to the coolant temp sensor. this tricks the ecu into making the mixture richer. this is how they add fuel for boost conditions