1980 FI Will Not Start

[jimj]

Before I bore you all with my wordiness here are my key questions:
1. Look at the Intake cam picture, is there any reason I should not turn it counter clock wise about 7 teeth?
2. This question is just for my sanity. Why do you align the cams, crank, and aux. shaft to TDC on cylinder 1 but the distributor to cylinder 4? I just cannot make sense of this.
2.a. I assume when I set the timing, I place the pick-up on spark plug wire 4 not 1 as you would on most other cars.
3. How long should it take a rookie to replace the timing belt?
3.a. Are there any special tools I might need?
3.b. If the belt looks brand new should I consider reusing it?
4. Can you just replace the coil on the Marelli Electronic ignition module? I do not see why not. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... vi=1409802
5. Has anyone had experience with the Equss 3568 timing light? I like it since it does RPMs as well so I do not need to depend on the car’s tach which seems less precise. http://www.equus.com/Product/3568/INNOV ... ming-Light

For those who do not mind my wordiness please read on.

My son and I worked on the car last Saturday and Sunday. We also made a new friend who was extremely helpful and is looking for a pre 1975 Triumph Spitfire or Fiat Spider. So if you know any good deals please let me know via my email (Please do not post here, I do not want to make the post a sales post).

Saturday started great but unfortunately ends badly do to my old muscle car mentality. When we got there we started the car and it ran but very roughly and would not idle. We replaced the plugs, rotor, and cap and the car started much easier, idles but barely, and felt very sluggish so I only ran the RPMs up to about 2500. We then ran the new Sea Foam aerosol injector cleaner through the intake manifold as per the instructions. After leaving the car off for about 10 minutes we restarted and it bellowed out tons of smoke for about 10 minutes. Now the car idles pretty good and sound much, much better but still feels very sluggish like the timing is very retarded.

We removed the timing chain cover and set cylinder 1 to TDC on the compression stroke and noted two oddities; 1. The intake cam was fairly forward of the cam timing mark, and 2. The distributor cap appeared to be pointing to cylinder number 4. Now you smart guys are probably seeing were my old school mentality got me in trouble. Since I did not have a working timing light and could not check the timing I had to decide wither to turn the distributor to cylinder 1 or adjust the intake cam timing. Since the distributor rotation cannot smash mechanical parts into each other but the cam timing can, we rotated the distributor to cylinder 1 as it is currently at TDC on the compression stroke. Most of you probably think you know what happened next to but you may be wrong. It did not backfire all over the place it simple would not start, just kept rotating. Since it was getting dark we decided to call it a night.

During the evening I read my manual and discovered the distributor was suppose to be aligned to cylinder 4 and we should not have rotated the distributor; but why was it not back firing, it simply would not start but turned over well.

The next day we spent a good part of the day setting the distributor back to Cylinder 4 but no matter what we did we could not get the engine to start, cough and spit a little but no start. Tried start fluid, different plugs, tested but did not switch spark plug wires, Tested coil spark and got a good 1“ red arc to the exhaust manifold, test individual spark plugs to the exhaust manifold and got very mixed results. Most would arc to the manifold but when grounded to the manifold would not arc between center and earth electrodes. We found this rather interesting and probably got a little side tracked. We started testing an array of plugs; the original plugs in the car: Bosch Premium Plus 4s, the replacement plugs I bought: E3 Premium Diamond Fires, and even tested two fresh out of the box NGK G-Power plugs properly gapped none of the brands would always arc from center to earth electrodes. Makes me doubt my coil even though it will provide red 1 inch arc to the manifold and pass all resistance tests. Well enough about the plugs let me show you my cam timing issue.

Below are some photos. You can see the exhaust cam lines up correctly but the intake cam appears to be off by 6 or 7 teeth. I also included pictures of the crank and distributor so you can see they are lined up correctly. My assumption is the intake cam’s apparent misalignment along with my inferior spark is why we cannot get the engine running and why we did not get massive backfires when we misaligned the distributor. Let me remind you this car was running and even idling with the intake cam in this position so if any of you have some thoughts I would greatly like to hear them, especially if you thinks this intake cam could be aligned correctly. After the photos is my plan for our next trip.

Cam Pulleys



Crank Timing Mark and Distributor Alignment::


Next Trip:
• Realign cams and aux shaft to the crank
• Time car
• Install new coil even though old one test ok, I am just replacing the coil not the rest of the ignition pack. Master Pro Coil: http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detai ... vi=1409802
• If still not running replace spark plug wires but current ones measure good 45-52K Ω.
• Have spare cap and rotor but one in car looks great
• If the above does not get the car running seriously consider getting it towed home.

Thanks for the inputs, and I am not slamming any spark plugs. I just could not believe we could take identical plugs ground them using jumper cables to the exhaust manifold and some would spark while others would not; must have been a weak ground. I wish I had taken a video.

[So Cal Mark]

sure looks like the intake cam is way off. I'd make sure the dowel pin isn't sheared off, that would explain why it was running.
As for cam timing, it's a 4 stroke engine. 1 and 4 are at tdc at the same time. The ignition is set to 4 since that cyl is on compression when the marks are lined up.
Also, the dist cap contacts aren't exactly lined up with the plug nipple. Make sure you really do have the rotor pointed to the #4 terminal.
New connectors with pigtails are readily available for your temp sender. Most vendors, including myself, keep them in stock

[jimj]

Mark,

Do you sell the dowel pin and can it be installed with the cam inplace? Also do you have the pitail instock; is there a connetor on the other end?

[So Cal Mark]

I don't have cam dowels, is your's sheared off? I do have the FI temp sender pigtails. They have the proper connector on one end and wires on the other end. You have to connect the wires to the harness

[jimj]

Mark,
I am affraid you are right about the dowel becuase me and my son both thought the cam moved. What are the odds I have done internal damage if the pin did shear?

[YVRSpider]

I just bought my '82 Fi a few months ago and could get it to start but it would not rev up no matter what I tried or what parts I replaced. The previous owner put on a new F.Pump on but the problem still existed. Turns out the problem was that the fuel supply feeder nipple on the fuel tank was plugged up with mineral deposits,scaling etc so not enough fuel was getting through to the pump. If your has a similar problem but with a worse blockage, then I suppose no amount of new fuel pumps will make a difference. Old stale fuel really seems to be a great source of aggravation with these great cars.
Great looking car you have there but if it's been sitting for any period of time perhaps you may want to check into this as well and good luck!

[vandor]

Mark,
I am affraid you are right about the dowel becuase me and my son both thought the cam moved. What are the odds I have done internal damage if the pin did shear?

I have dowels if you need one. On a 2000 engine with stock pistons the valve reliefs are large enough not to bend the valves if this happens, however there is a chance that and intake valve may have hit an exhaust valve. Only way to tell for sure is with a leakdown test. If a valve is badly bent you can check it by measuring the valve clearances. Large clearance = bent valve.

[SLOSpider]

Jim first you need to fix the dowel if it is why the intake cam is off. Then reset all the marks and install the belt. While the belt Is off make sure the tensioner bearing is good and spins freely and quiet. Install new belt if unsure of age or over 2 years old. Once marks are lined up and belt on recheck that rotor is pointed to #4 on cap contact on bottom of cap. While cap is off make sure you check the two pickup coil wires in there as they all get brittle and when touched the insolation falls off and grounds out. This could of happen when you were in there last. If insolation is off Id recommend a new pickup coil to be installed. Once that is all done it should have spark and restart. If you have swpark out of coil no need to replace it.

If still not starting then check fuel pressure as noted above you may have a restriction in line / filter. You can use starting fluid to see if it starts with that if its a supply problem.

Brian

[SLOSpider]

Thanks Jim you cused me... Checking my Fiat my cams are the same way but someone marked the back side of the intake that does line up. I think my issue is a changed cam sprocket. When belt get here I'll pull the gear off and check for dowel is in the right location.

[So Cal Mark]

Jim
since your sprockets don't have belt guides, it's possible you have an exhaust sprocket installed on the intake cam. That would explain the marks not lining up

[SLOSpider]

Searching found this:

Re: camshaft pulleys

New postby ventura ace on Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:34 am

The easiest way to tell is to look at the dowel hole that keys the pulley to the camshaft , and look at the alignment marks. When standing in front of the engine, facing the pulleys, if the camshaft dowel holes are straight up (12 o'clock position), the the alignment marks for each pulley should point toward the center of the engine. This rule should apply regardless of whether or not the pulleys are stamped and whether or not there are belt guides at the front or back of the pulleys.

Alvon

[SLOSpider]

Jim I found out mine was off because someone had drilled a new dowel location hole and tried to make a new mark that was off. I cant tell by your pic if there is another hole in yours. If you look close at the washer just above you can see the hole for the dowel. Its just below the hole to align the cam but at the top of the washer behind the fastening bolt of the cam.

[jimj]

Alvon, I read your response and some of your post, very informative. If I understand correctly the cam dowel should be straight up from the center of the cam bolt; 12:00 position. If the cam’s dowel pin is ok my intake cam V guide and hole should line up. If not and the timing hole appears to be very close to the exhaust cam’s alignment, it is likely someone installed an exhaust cam gear on my intake cam.

If I have the wrong gear I could try timing it by using the dowel key at 12:00. I will order a new gear but it will not arrive before my next trip to the car. I did not want to tow it home but I may have to. If I had this car in my garage I would be working on it in the evenings too. My next trip is scheduled for Tuesday.

Once again I thank everyone for the help.

[SLOSpider]

I just reposted Avlons old post. Im Brian

He is correct that if the dowel is at the 12 oclock position then the hole to line up should be to the left (intake cam) or about 11:50. If its to the Right 1:00 then its an exhaust gear. You can see in your photo that the angle matches the angel on the exhaust gear that is lined up.

HOWEVER the correct cam position is not with the dowel at the 12:00 postion with it all lined up More like 11:00 as you can see in my pulley with the red paint. I cant really see but as stated it looks like the pulley has an S on it and would confirm an exhaust. Some pulleys were plastic with an insert that would come loose and make noise so putting on a exhaust pulley may have been the only thing available to use.

Even if you do find it has an S or that when the dowel is 12 and the hole is 1:00 confirming ex wheel, the intake cam is still not set properly UNLESS they drilled another hole, as in my case. Lots of possibilities. You could get close by turning the cam so that you would be two to the left of the dowel location from the pointer mark. So if your pointer is pointing straight to the dowel then rotate the cam clock wise two teeth for your setting.

But this is all what ifs so check it out and get make to us. If you need some phone help Im give a call

Brian 805-234-6463

[divace73]

you know is what is scary about all of this would be if you didn't do the investigation on the dowell location and just tried to re-align to where the whole was, you could have done some serious damage to the engine, Always pays to do an investigation from scratch if things don't seem right. In saying that there is also the 'if it aint broken don't fix it' rule may apply when things look odd??