1980 FI Will Not Start

[jimj]

Fellow members I just bought my daughter a 1980, 2000 Spider with fuel injection. The car does not run and is located about 4 hours from my home. I am thinking the fuel pump is bad but the previous owner just installed a new one. I do not want to order another Pump foolishly. So I thought I would present my situation to the forum. All advice is appreciated.

Below is a description of the symptoms, followed by background of action I have taken to get it started; still unsuccessful. I have limited tools and knowledge especially with Fiats but have a good mechanical and electrical skills.

Symptoms:
1. The car turns over fine and may burp a little smoke on first crank: but will not run.
2. With starter fluid it will burp longer but not run, but sounds like it should and exhaust smoke is present.
3. The previous owner says he replaced fuel pump twice but I cannot hear it running with the ignition switch in the start position. Is the pump easy to hear over rattling exhaust? Also it surprised me that I never saw voltage present at the pump when the ignition is in the run position only in the start position. Is this normal?
I did not complete a fuel pressure test as I did not have a pressure gauge with me. Also the manual indicates you must have a Y connector. Is this parallel connection essential for a basic pressure reading?

Background Actions:
I complete my first visit to the car with limited time and tools but I did complete most steps of the “Starter Runs but Will Not Start” diagnostics. It is a 19 step guide for fuel injected Spiders that will not start. By the way I found only the test procedure of this manual; if anyone knows where I can buy the full manual it would be greatly appreciated. I could not complete some actions as I did not have the referenced supporting pages. I think it may be part of the electrical manual at IAP but am not sure.

Here are the results: Note failures and questionable results are in bold.
1. Check Ignition system for spark: Passed, Spark present.
2. Check Intake Air System: Passed.
All intake components appeared to be connected and in “OK” condition. Vacuum lines look like they were replaced recently. Passed.
3. Check Fuel Feed Pressure: Not completed.
Did not complete this step due to lack of gauge and time.
4. Check Voltage at Injectors: Inconclusive
I think the test light was flicker but it was very hard to see it. Need to retest at night.
5. Check Coolant Temperature Sensor Resistance: Failed, open circuit.
I did not have long enough leads to test wiring. Could be sensor could be wiring.
6. Check Thermo Time Switch: Inconclusive
Test light did not come on but it was close to 85 degrees outside
7. Check Cold Start Valve: Not completed
I could not find the Thermo-time switch, but I now know where it is. Is there an easier test for the cold start valve?
8. Check Air Flow Sensor: Passed
8.a. Senor Plate moved freely and returned to closed position.
8.b. ECU terminal 6 & 8 resistance was 365Ω which is less than 600
8.2 ECU terminal 7 & 8 resistance was 415Ω which is less than 1200
8.3 ECU terminal 8 & 9 resistance was 202Ω which is less than 350
9. Check Voltage at fuel Pump: Passed but somewhat inconclusive.
Test light dimmed and brightened with starter rotation. Volt meter indicated 9.5 to 11.5 volts across the fuel pump with the pump in circuit. Pump was could but I could not fell any vibration or hear any noise. Also surprised voltage is only present when the ignition key is in start position never there in run position. I assume this is due to some control circuit but this seems odd to me.
10. Check Voltage Output to Fuel Pump at Relay Set: Passed
11. Check Voltage Input to Relay Set from Ignition Switch: Passed
12. Check Voltage Input to Fuel Pump Relay of Relay Set: Passed
13. Check Input Voltage to Control Relay Set: Passed
14. Check Input Voltage to Control Relay of Relay Set: Passed
15. Check Output Voltage from Control Relay of Relay Set: Passed
16. Check Output Voltage from Control Relay of Relay Set: Passed
17. Check Output Voltage from Control Relay of Relay Set: Passed
18. Check Voltage Signal from Coil to ECU: Passed
Voltage fluctuated between 9.5 and 11 volts with the starter turning over but I suspect this to be normal
19. Check Ground Circuits for ECU: Passed
Pins 5,16 and 17 were all less than a half an ohm

Any Thoughts?

Below is my new project car and very happy daughter.

[azruss]

your daughter will even have a bigger smile when you get it going. here are a few things to try.
Fuel pump is actived by the AFM door opening or the switch in the starter position. the starter can drown out the fuel pump. pull the air cleaner and stick a screwdriver in the AFM to hold the door open and turn on the key. check volts across the fuel pump. also check volts from + side of pump to any chassis ground. (fuel pump ground is iffy). Cold start can be checked by pulling it out of the plenum and insert in a glass jar. turn the starter and see if it sprays fuel. If it does then the thermo time switch is ok. the temp sensor should have finite resistance between the contacts. do you get continuity across the contacts. should be in the 300 ohm range. you can fake the car out by putting a resistor about that size across the contacts. others here have more accurate numbers for that. Check the condition of your mag pickup in the dizzy. the wires are prone to wear and corrosion.

[vandor]

FWIW the cold start injector will only spray if the temp is below ~65F.

I am surprised it does not start on starter fluid. Before you mess any more with the FI, take off the distributor cap and look at the wires of the pickup coil. It is common for them to lose their insulation and short to each other or ground. Do you get a nice strong spark?

BTW, the fuel pump grounds on the left taillight's mounting stud, be sure it is a good clean connection.

[So Cal Mark]

it would be helpful to know more background. For instance, how long the car has been sitting and what other services the PO performed. If it's been sitting over 6 months, the injectors are probably stuck due to varnish. If that's the case, it won't run no matter what condition the rest of the fuel system is in. Did the PO replace the timing belt, and perhaps mistimed it?

[jimj]

The PO said it has been sitting for 3 to 4 months. The timing belt was changed several months before then and the car was running fine. I hope to go back out there this weekend. I will post my action plan but here is the preliminary:

1. Check fuel pump for noise and vibration with AFM door held open, if voltage low check pump ground
2. Non-parallel fuel pump pressure test
UPS guy just delivered my Workshop Manual; Yes!!
3. Check cold start injector for fuel spray
4. Not sure I want t pull and test injectors were the car sits but I will review the procedure and make a decision tonight
5. Double check spark plug for good hot spark
6. If Spark is weak check Distributor, Mag Pick-up, Coil, Cables, Engine Ground
7. More to come this evening

[jimj]

Is there a recommended Noid Test Light Kit for fiats?

[narfire]

Is there a recommended Noid Test Light Kit for fiats?

I bought one for a "chev tracker" and it fits/works fine. Think it was about $15.00 or so here in BC at Lordco.

[vandor]

Is there a recommended Noid Test Light Kit for fiats?

It takes the one made for the Bosch systems.

[rlux4]

I got my kit at Autozone. And like Chris the one that fits is labeled "GEO", which is the Tracker. You're right Csaba, but the confusing part when I first got it is that it wasn't labeled Bosch.
Ron

[rodman]

run a hot wire from the battery back to the fuel pump see if it turns on... if so try to start the car...

[rlux4]

Re; #9 on your original post. With the original components the fuel pump gets power when the engine is turning, drawing air in past the flap in the AFM. As the flap moves from the closed position it makes contact at the silver arm in the upper right of the AFM. So in the start position the engine is cranking and drawing in air, if the engine isn't turning the flap is closed if the key is the run position.
Ron

[joelittel]

Also check the ground wire on the ds tail light. I believe it runs to the fuel pump through the light circuitry. My ground was bad and I had to clean the entire tail light circuit card to fix my intermittent starting problem.

[rodman]

Also check the ground wire on the ds tail light. I believe it runs to the fuel pump through the light circuitry. My ground was bad and I had to clean the entire tail light circuit card to fix my intermittent starting problem.

found this article

It's a bad ground. "90 percent of a Fiat's electrical problems can be directly traced to a dirty or corroded ground. Component failure is actually pretty rare," says Varnes. The challenge, of course, is tracking down those bad grounds to alleviate the problem. Start with anything that's been added to the stock electrical system over the years: Radios, foglamps, driving lamps, relays, etc., especially those connected with unsoldered crimp-style connectors, can cause electrical nightmares. Once you've eliminated any potential problems here, begin with a wiring diagram and trace every single ground to find out if it's dirty or corroded. Chances are almost guaranteed that you'll find your problem here.

[So Cal Mark]

the fuel pump ground DOES NOT run through the light circuit. The ground attaches to a mounting stud for the lamp assy

[jimj]

Sorry for the late update. My son and I spent half of a day on the car. The fuel pump was bad and also the ground had about 60 Ω of resistance, we got a new fuel pump in and got the ground down to about 3 Ω. The car is now running roughly and will not idle. The electrical has issues as well some typical some not so typical. The rotor has a crack running along the contact arm; The Cap looks good but will be replaced to assure the rotor arm does not crack again. I hope the distributor bearings are good. I am showing about 40 Ω from the negative side of the coil to ground. We disconnected all ground lugs in the engine compartment cleaned them and applied electrical grease but we still have 38 Ω of resistance. Plugs were also in so so shape. I will replace them next trip. We did get a good spark from the coil but not as good at the plug wires; I assume this is due to the rotor and so so plugs, spark plug cables look brand new.

Tomorrow I will look at timing belt, timing and general tune-up items. If the engine still is running ruff I will try Sea Foam injector cleaner at the air intake manifold.
I assume the only gasket I will need to replace when checking the Timing belt is the T housing. The local Advanced Auto says they have an o-ring that will work. Foolish me left the shop manual with the car.
I thank everyone for the help.