The Terrible Tragedy in CT, and what do we do about it?

[FulviaHF]

No, I give up. Guns aren't any part of the problem. And even though we could do something that might make some incremental difference, because we can't stop the problem completely, we won't do anything. We'll just somehow return to the 1950s, and everything will be fine.

Good luck. There's nothing further I can contribute.

[Gunsmith]

See that's part of the problem and how many gun control debates or "Conversations" often end. Just because people that don't wish to be disarmed and left defenseless aren't going to quietly give up their rights to those that don't understand them proponents of gun control just say "So then we should do nothing"? Have you heard this from gun owners yet I haven't? But disarming law abiding citizens is still not the place to start. So instead of starting with the other things that we might work together on we just go back to our corners. How about a day to say hi to your neighbor or a day to let people cut you off in traffic without giving them the finger. How about asking teenagers to pull up their pants and respect others? Just because gun control is not the answer or even the beginning of it does not mean the conversation about the problem should end. As stated in many posts before it is great how civil this debate has remained but often people hiding behind a keyboard are far less than civil as we have seen on this forum a time or two. So this thread is proof it is possible.

Many people have stated on this thread how the lack of family values or the respect for your fellow man has been beaten nearly to death which is the real problem. My father used to bring his rifle he used on the school rifle team on the school bus with him on the way to school. No one ever got hurt. He was even bullied for a time until he grew larger than the bullies but he did not use his public school issued gun to solve the problem.

This is not just an American problem this problem is growing world wide. If we don't start doing our best to build civility every chance we get no law will save us. There are plenty of crimes committed in police states with few civil rights so that does not seem to be the answer. There was a time in this country when we demanded respect from each other and life was hard for you if you did not show it. We have grown from the fifties and thankfully put some of the ugly parts of it behind us and learned from them. But there are still good things we could bring back from those days the first of which would be to say please and thank you.

In my generation I saw the beginning of the people that wanted something for nothing now it has evolved into I'm not getting my free stuff fast enough or as much of it as I want so I am going to just take it. This could be a good place to start.

[FulviaHF]

20 children and 6 adults were killed by an individual with a semi-automatic rifle. He could have used an antique single-shot bolt-action rifle, or a kitchen knife, or possibly trained ducks, but instead we made sure he had easy access to far more efficient tools. But rather than even considering any steps we might take that would have made a mass murderer's task a little more difficult--not making it impossible, and not disarming the citizenry, but merely making some murder less efficient--we're reduced to discussing teenagers' baggy pants, and saying 'hi' to our neighbors. That's why this conversation is ending for me. Please (see, there's that word) don't misunderstand; I don't say this with any rancor, but simply an acceptance that we can only talk past each other at this point.

[Gunsmith]

Well ok, but the trained ducks thing did make me laugh. Which is pretty hard given the subject matter.

[RRoller123]

We didn't "make sure he had easy access to far more efficient tools". Access is a big part of the problem and I agree needs to be part of the solution. Stronger punishments for improper possession and storage are fine with me. And actually punishing the perps for these infractions is fine with me too.

[131]

But there are still good things we could bring back from those days the first of which would be to say please and thank you. In my generation I saw the beginning of the people that wanted something for nothing now it has evolved into I'm not getting my free stuff fast enough or as much of it as I want so I am going to just take it. This could be a good place to start.

we made sure he had easy access to far more efficient tools.

Stronger punishments for improper possession and storage are fine with me. And actually punishing the perps for these infractions is fine with me too.

These three points are pertinent to me, I don't know what a solution may be, but these are issues to look at.

[Gunsmith]

This entire thread illustrates the issue we have in this country. The question was posed what do we do about the problem of violence in our culture and the vast majority of the discussion focused on one of the tools they use to commit their heinous acts and not much as to what got them to that point. Each time other much larger factors of the root cause of the problem were brought up they were either ignored, quickly dismissed or just made fun of. If our country moves forward with this attitude it is not likely that anything will change for the better and the problem will just grow larger. I hope all of you contact your representatives and demand that they take action that works on the root problems no matter what side of gun ownership you are on. If they believe they can placate you with just gun laws then that is where it will end and nothing will get better.

[RRoller123]

I agree, and with initial postings that I made to start this thread, I had hoped that the discussion would get around to policy changes that might help reduce the levels of violence in our culture. And not just firearms crimes, but violent crime in general, which is all too pervasive in our culture. So I will number the initial policy suggestions I made earlier, post them below, and see if maybe they can act as a starting point for a solutions discussion.

So what do we do about this? I would consider support for all of the following:

1,) Increased funding for identification and treatment of the mentally ill.

2.) Create a new Movie rating "Y" and have it 21 or older, and have it enforced, on any film that contains some level of gratuitous viloence, tbd.

3.) Same for video games, and for that matter other cultural vehicles that promote the rancid cesspool that the media has made of our culture.

4.) Continue to have absolutely zero tolerance for bullying in our schools and in our culture at large.

5.) Harden the schools and malls. Maybe hire retired police as armed guards. Security needs, as in Israel, are a new reality.

6.) Put in place dramatically higher penalties (10 year min) for illegal possession of a firearm. I will gladly pay higher taxes to pay for the prisons.

7.) Some reasonable slight modification of the interpretation of the 4th amendment, so when a minor crime is committed on the street and the person is found to be in possession of an illegal firearm, they can be prosecuted. In other words, sweep the GD streets and get the illegal guns off them. The firearm prison would be a separate prison, so the perp doesn't go away and learn how to be a better criminal from the fellow perp prison population.

8.) I would support harsh prison penalties for anyone improperly storing a firearm, such that it falls into the hands of a perp. Lanza's mother was apparently first in this tragedy to pay the ultimate price for this failure.

9.) would consider a national licensing and background check policy, although I have reservations about this. But I would listen to a plan open mindedly.

And I am sure there are quite a few more that we could come up with.

[TX82FIAT]

Folks, I have enjoyed this discussion and really respect the various opinions discussed. I would like to draw some causion to the premise that more funding or people solve various problems. Money or People are a typically quick fixs that do not get to the root of the problem. For example, More money in education for smaller classroom sizes and higher teacher pay sounds great. However, children valuing education starts at home with parents involved and encouraging educational performance. Respect for what a sound education will provide needs to be taugh. More people would accecpt disparity in earnings if they accepted accepted personal accountablity for the level of education. Another Example, you can pay for and hire more police officers to make society safe. However, you need to address the reasons we are seeing more crime. More enforcement does not address why crime is on the rise or the value of respect that is lacking when you take other people stuff.

Mental illness is serious problem. If we are going to put money towards this we need to direct the money towards the causes as well as the treatment. After all, we eat better food to keep our body healthy. We spend money on treatments when something is wrong. The cure is in the prevention of the desease more than in the treatment of the illness.

[Gunsmith]

1,) Increased funding for identification and treatment of the mentally ill.....
Great idea but the way our government wastes money and accomplishes nothing I would like to see how this can be done without just creating another failing bureaucracy. There must be a way I just don't know what it is. One thing for certain is the current plan of waiting until the mentally ill commit a crime and then just throw them into prison is hardly the way to deal with it.

2.) Create a new Movie rating "Y" and have it 21 or older, and have it enforced, on any film that contains some level of gratuitoviolencence, tbd....
Nice idea but parents don't bother to watch what their kids are watching now so once it's on video it's going to be seen. Maybe some would start using it and I am not sure what the down side would be so it is probably worth a shot.

3.) Same for video games, and for that matter other cultural vehicles that promote the rancid cesspool that the media has made of our culture....
I feel the common denominator of how these things effect society and thought process is parents do not talk about what their kids see with them and that the bad guys are seen as not bad guys anymore.

4.) Continue to have absolutely zero tolerance for bullying in our schools and in our culture at large....
This is tuff too since bullying can be left up to interpretation and once someone is labeled as a bullier this too may cause problems. There is no place for bulling and we can see what the harmful effects are but I am not sure what zero tolerance will mean. I was the shortest kid in class until the 10th grade when I finally grew taller than some of the other kids. This meant that every year at the beginning of school I knew I was going to have to fight the new wanna be bully. This accomplished a number of things, I learned life was not fare at an early age. I learned you have to take care of yourself because someone will not always be there to help or protect you. No matter how big your opponent or problem is it can be defeated. Usually the first fight of the year cured the problem for the rest but not always. What the bully learned was that this type of behavior caused yourself pain and embarrassment and was not worth it as you did not want to be known as the big kid that got your butt kicked by the shortest kid in class for the rest of the year. So yes sometimes the bulling thing just needs to get worked out, it does build character as they say. I was also usually suspended from school for this as they told me it was not right to use violence even in self defense and I was supposed to just wait for help to arrive. This never seemed like a good idea to me.

5.) Harden the schools and malls. Maybe hire retired police as armed guards. Security needs, as in Israel, are a new reality…..
This is a good idea and does work very well from what my Israeli friends tell me. But as we all know when a criminal finds one thing difficult he will move to another so we should look at what will be the next target.

6.) Put in place dramatically higher penalties (10 year min) for illegal possession of a firearm. I will gladly pay higher taxes to pay for the prisons….
This is already in place in most states and lobbied for by the NRA just so you all know. The problem is the prosecutors throw this charge out on the first plea deal very often so it rarely gets used.
The real problem is we don’t force people to serve the time they are given on their first crime. So when a felon gets out of prison he must recruit non-criminals to help him with his new plan so he can stay under the radar thus making more criminals. This is actually why our prisons are so full. So if we actually made these people serve a real sentence for a crime they will have less time to recruit new criminals which in theory over time would reduce the prison population. I do believe people make mistakes and deserve second chances in some circumstances. But there is a big difference between an 18year old caught with pot and one that beat up an old lady for her purse.

7.) Some reasonable slight modification of the interpretation of the 4th amendment, so when a minor crime is committed on the street and the person is found to be in possession of an illegal firearm, they can be prosecuted. In other words, sweep the GD streets and get the illegal guns off them. The firearm prison would be a separate prison, so the perp doesn't go away and learn how to be a better criminal from the fellow perp prison population.


8.) I would support harsh prison penalties for anyone improperly storing a firearm, such that it falls into the hands of a perp. Lanza's mother was apparently first in this tragedy to pay the ultimate price for this failure…
She may have stored them correctly and he may have made her give him access to them we do not know the real story of that yet and may never. What if a person cannot afford a safe or feels they need their gun in a way that gives them quick access to them because they live in a crime ridden area and it is stolen does this person need to go to prison because of an illegal act of someone else? I am a little afraid of this one. What if someone stole your car keys and started running people down would that be your fault for not locking your keys in the safe? What if you did not watch the news and did not know about the law and someone stole your firearm and now you are facing prison time? I just don’t like where this one could go. In Florida as in most states it is already illegal for a firearm to be left where a child can gain easy access to it.

9.) would consider a national licensing and background check policy, although I have reservations about this. But I would listen to a plan open mindedly….
This would serve no other purpose other than to make it easier for either the criminals or others with bad intentions to find you and your guns. Remember any government list or document is public record so the crooks will be able to buy a shopping list to see who has what they want. That is just TV hype. Additionally criminals don’t register their guns so what good will come from this?
All states currently have instant background checks for the purchase of a gun which work fine since most criminals do not try to purchase their guns from lawful dealers or individuals. Individuals can not use this system if their neigbor wants to buy their gun which I think is a bad idea. If someone wants to sell their gun privately I think they should be able to use the instant check system for piece of mind. Only problem with this is someone actually has to input the data so the background check can work.

This is part of the problem most people think that there are not already laws addressing these issues and that gun owners just want a free for all. I would continue to ask why current laws are not enforced and what help is given to parents who identify their children as in need of real help.

[RRoller123]

Good stuff Gunsmith. I like the focus on enforcing current law. You are right that most people don't know the extent of the laws that are currently on the books to control all this. The problem, as you correctly state, is that the perps don't care about the law. So the laws generally just burden the Constitutional rights of the good guys. I guess my overall response to this situation is like yours, that we need to enforce the laws that are already on the books, but I am open to debating new initiatives. As an example, if perps really did go away for quite a few years for illegal FA possession, and the police were empowered to find and filter these guys off the streets, the prison we would need to build would be mighty small, maybe just a few rooms at the Motel 6. Once they see that the price to be paid IS paid for illegal possession, I believe their behavior would change pretty quickly. When I worked in Singapore, as an example, back in the late 80's, they had an absolutely ZERO tolerance for drug smuggling or dealing. The death penalty was common. Needless to say the smuggling routes bypassed Singapore, and the population had very low drug addiction rates.

[Coolbreeze]

5.) Harden the schools and malls. Maybe hire retired police as armed guards. Security needs, as in Israel, are a new reality.

* * *

9.) would consider a national licensing and background check policy, although I have reservations about this. But I would listen to a plan open mindedly.

I understand the outer doors of the school were locked, but that the perp shot out a lock and got in. This gave the school a few seconds to protect their children. Several of the teachers did a fine job of protecting their children. If the outer doors (and locks) were more hardened, the perp may not have made it inside.

If gun owners were registered, we could face the same situation they had in Europe before World War II. The Italian government told the people they wanted to know who had guns so that they might turn to those persons to assist in national defense. A few years later, the police visited those who had registered and confiscated their guns. NO, we cannot register guns or their owners.

I do not like hiring armed guards for every school. Rather, I would prefer carefully screened and trained teachers and administrators be allowed to have the tools to protect themselves and the children. This does not necessarily mean allowing them to carry guns, but may include pepper spray or tasers.

A family I know had a troubled teenager. They locked up all their guns or had them removed to a secure location. Although we cannot read our children's minds, we should have an idea if they are not stable. It appears the mother either did not this insight -- or chose to deny what may have been apparent to others -- and she paid dearly for it. The same problem led to the tragedy in Columbine. If anyone has an idea of how to cause parents to be more engaged and responsible, please share.

[Fi8spider]

As a past Vice President of a Hunting and Fishing Club here in the southern suburbs of Sydney I have been keeping a keen eye on this thread. Firstly I must commend the forum members here who have contributed to the dialogue and kept the discussion above board and sensible.

In Australia we had a change (well complete overhaul) of the National Firearms Act after the Port Arthur tragedy in which so many innocent lives were lost.

In brief when the Act came into force there was an amnesty held for a considerable period of time where basically anybody in possession of a firearm that was not licensed could hand the firearm in without any questions, many police stations around the nation were set up as central drop off points but you could basically walk into any station and hand your firearm in, no questions asked.

All semi automatic rifles and shotguns sales were banned and anybody in possession of these types of firearms were offered an agreed amount of money by the Government of the time as part of a "buy back scheme" as they were now illegal to have in possession. The amounts offered were reasonable but not welcomed by all, especially vintage arm collectors.

Handguns could not be stored at home any more and had to be stored in an approved club armoury, only those with reason to have a hand gun in possession i.e. security could keep store them outside of a club armoury.

All persons wanting to acquire a firearms licence had to reapply and had to be part of an approved Firearms club and attend a minimum amount of club events per year otherwise licence will be revoked. Reports must be handed in annually by each club in the nation detailing their member’s activity or non activity.

All firearms at home have to be stored in an approved locker. Ammunition, firing pins and bolts need to be securely stored separate to the firearms.

Random inspections are carried out by the police to ensure every thing is to spec. I have had my lockers at home inspected 3 times in the past 10 years where everything from frame numbers, registration papers and ammo storage is checked.

There were many other areas of the sport which were changed but these were the main ones. Oh and a 28 day cooling off period before your application to acquire a firearm is approved so that history checks can be conducted.

The amount of firearms that were handed in for destruction at the time ran into the tens of thousand.

At the time I thought that the change in the law meant the beginning of the end of our sport. Many years on and I really think it was a good move by the government at the time and a fair enough balance which I'm sure reduced the risk of unlicensed individuals picking up unregistered firearms from behind cupboards or something to go settle a score.

[RRoller123]

Fi8Spider:

I am somewhat of a history buff but admit that I have very little detailed knowledge of the disarmaments that occured in GB, AU, Scotland, etc. Was there strong public resistance to this? If there was, what was the government response to resistance? If there wasn't resistance, why do you think that is?

Pete

[Fi8spider]

Pete,

Naturally there was public resistance, mainly from the folk (like myself) who were affected by the change in the law, nobody likes to see their sport diminish or disappear forever. I was the owner os a semi-auto shot gun that I used for rabbit hunting, I have since gotten over it and have become a better shooter all for it as I an limited to a double barrel, possibly why we Aussies have done so well in Trap and Skeet at the Olympics.

There was a strong push by the Shooters Party to ensure that as many firearm owners as possible joined the SSAA (Sporting Shooters Association of Australia). The purpose of this was that to ensure that the voice of the sporting shooter was collective, would not be silenced and that satisfactory representation in the Senate would be possible.

I'm sure the political aspect of what happened at the time can be reported much better than I can explain, especially since nearly 2 decades have past since and I have forgotten a lot of the detail to what actually happened.

The sport has grown from strength to strength since the new law requires all firearm owners to be a financial member of an approved firearms club and to participate in a minimum amount of club events each reporting year. Basically it's a "don't use it and you lose it" scenario.

I have refrained from being opinionated in this context and to be more of a reporter if you wish to say.

However my opinion is this: I like what the government did. Sure they can never stop the outlaws from possessing illegal firearms but at least the new law reduced the risk of unwanted firearms ending up in the hands of undesirables.