The Terrible Tragedy in CT, and what do we do about it?

[CajunMike]

Good civil discussion. I am a gun owner mostly shotguns I use for hunting. What I see as the problem with these assault rifles is rounds per minute and magazine capacity. Combining the two quadruples the firepower. I would be open to limiting both of these factors particularly magazine capacity. Anything over 10 should be treated same as the weapon being sold. Background checks, etc. Tougher access laws also. Not so much requiring home inspections but selling both the weapon and locked cabinets at time of purchase or providing evidence of secured storage and requiring certifications of safety and storage classes prior to weapon purchases. Probably wouldn't have made a difference here but better defining "responsible" gun ownership would be a good way to start.

Also having worked at a psych hospital for a number of years there is a huge problem with lack of mental health capacity. Most people on medication inevitably stop taking it. We saw it time and time again. Patient x left the hospital under controlled meds and was back within months or years because they stopped taking them. It's a huge problem in this country.

[Gunsmith]

Just so everyone knows all firearms must be sold with a lock already by law and it is already illegal to store your firearms in a manner easily accessed by minors or others that should not have access to them. Additionally if your are deemed mentally incompetent by a judge you are not allowed to possess a firearm but someone needs to register the person as such. Most of the time no one follows through on this. So new laws would do what again?

How could a larger magazine quadruple the firepower? I don't get it? Semi automatic rifles do not shoot any faster than shotguns and are no more powerful. Why is this so confusing? In case anyone missed it TV guns are not real.........

Anyways I have to get on the road....

[CajunMike]

Then why do these lunatics always seem to choose assault rifles and semi auto handguns as the mass murder weapon of choice? Shotguns may have equal killing power from close range maybe more so but that killing capacity is limited by range, rapid fire, accuracy and shot capacity and reloading time. Why does someone need a 30 shot clip for protection or hunting?

I agree that laws on storage and access do virtually nothing. The problem is that this country is just another killing spree away from serious infringement on the second amendment. I would prefer to see policies that work more in favor of responsible gun owners, not a no guns for all policy. Who knows what the solution is but as long as the NRA ignores the problem then I'm afraid congress will ultimately go overboard.

[Gunsmith]

Ok well I'm trying to write this on my Iphone while my daughter drives so there will be more errors in my typing than normal I would imagine.

There are several flaws in the "I don't understand why anyone needs" argument. The main to me is the most obvious most people who say this truly don't understand what they are talking about. So why be so eager to ban what you don't understand?

The most common denominator in mass killings like it or not is that the victims are unarmed. Am I the only one that sees this? These killings don't happen because the killers gun shoots fast or holds more ammo it happens because people can not defend themselves. Semi automatic rifles and hand guns do not shoot a more powerful projectile or shoot any faster than guns built and designed over a century ago. Criminals choose their guns based on what they can steal or afford not on how they look. Consumers have been buying more semi autos over the last few decades because they like them so there are a lot more of them than other guns now so it is just that there are plenty to steal and yes movies make them seem cooler than grandpas old lever action. Oops can't bring Hollywood back into it that's unfair because it's free speach and we can just choose to ignore it if we want right?

Remember there are hundreds of millions of these guns already in our homes not hurting anyone and we would ban them because a handful were illegally obtained and misused?

This is like saying our Fiats are more powerful and we are more likely to break traffic laws with them if they had bigger gas tanks. You do not need a high capacity magazine to commit crimes if your victims are unarmed this is such a pointless argument to make.

I know people want to "do" something and quickly to make people feel like something is getting done and this is easier to do than take responsibility for what we have turned our society in to but my fear is that this will continue to turn into a gun control debate and the real problems will continue to be ignored as they always have been.

People like to bash the NRA but not the Civil Liberties Union this always puzzles me since the NRA is for the individuals right for self protection and strong penalties for criminals that misuse guns and the Civil Liberties Union fights for criminals rights. Ironic isn't it?

I hate typing on this phone I'm out...

[CajunMike]

Don't get me started on the social stuff and the Anti Christian League of the US better known as the ACLU. The erosion of spirituality and morality in this country is profound and cannot be fixed. Access to mass killing capacity can maybe be fixed and the only solution I can offer is limiting how fast one can discharge dozens of high powered bullets into a crowd of people. We can't fix crazy.

[surfingfreeman]

Gunsmith, come on do you actually believe this?

"The most common denominator in mass killings like it or not is that the victims are unarmed. Am I the only one that sees this? These killings don't happen because the killers gun shoots fast or holds more ammo it happens because people can not defend themselves. Semi automatic rifles and hand guns do not shoot a more powerful projectile or shoot any faster than guns built and designed over a century ago."

With all due respect it is exactly this kind of misinformation/outright falsehoods that the Keep the NRA in business. Total nonsense.

[RRoller123]

I am going to come back briefly just because I have to comment on this. I have been accosted 3 times that rate as serious, I will discuss 2 that are pertinent to the conversation.

Once at South of the Border at 2 am coming back from FL with my wife and kids, by 2 men. The threat of my having a firearm saved me.

Once in the parking lot at the Park Plaza in Boston, attending a wedding, went back to get gift from trunk, completely alone in the parking lot. Accosted by a knife wielding Rastafarian. The threat of my having a firearm saved me.

You may want to be unarmed, and that is your right certainly, but don't give me this bullshit that there is no value or security in carrying.

[giuliot60]

RRoller - Did you have to show the gun or did you just mention that you had one?

I had several instances in NYC. One case in particular I had just gotten out of the subway in Brooklyn during my art school days while living in a loft that was near a project. I was approached by 2 young men, and one had a 4x4 and I didn't know what the other one had. They asked me if I knew what time it was (a line any savvy NYer knows is a lead in to a confrontation when asked by certain individuals). I ignored them and kept on walking. They approached me again, with the 3 foot piece of wood and asked me again "If I had the time". I remained silent for a few minutes (and just happened to have my hands in my pockets) as I was asked a couple of more times about the time. I then responded that it was time to put that Mother F-ing stick down NOW! Their reply was "what do you got" and I just kept repeating to put the stick down and emphasized "NOW" every time. They eventually walked away and put the stick down. I went to my loft, told my girl friend about the incident and we called the police. The 2 guys wound up eventually attacking one of my neighbors, but the police got there shortly after the incident.

In this situation, I had no gun (but a big set of balls. I don't know if I would ever do that again) and I wasn't sure they didn't. I was lucky. But I figured that they probably thought I was packing. This was a little while after the Death Wish movies in the early 80s.

[Jimb]

Wow, "packing", "carrying", "what you got" ....those are all terms we used as kids playing around. I'm 62 and have never been threatened, other than by some guy when I was about 18 over a girl. And even that was no weapons of any kind. When I was in high school we didnt even kick a guy in the balls because that was dirty play. But "pack" a gun around. What a world you guys must live in. No thanks.

[4uall]

Wow, "packing", "carrying", "what you got" ....those are all terms we used as kids playing around. I'm 62 and have never been threatened, other than by some guy when I was about 18 over a girl. And even that was no weapons of any kind. When I was in high school we didnt even kick a guy in the balls because that was dirty play. But "pack" a gun around. What a world you guys must live in. No thanks.

Ditto (except I am 41)

[TX82FIAT]

Lived in NYC and in Philly until I was 38 years of age. My grandfather had a store on 61st and Vine in Philly that he sold after being attacked and stabbed for the third time. He was a tough old Italian! I've had my share of fight or flee moments and consider myself lucky to have injuries limited to an overnight stay in the hospital. The story by Giuliot60 should be read with extreme caution. First, you are not allowed to have a firearm of any kind in NYC. The people that want your stuff in NYC know this and the threat of a gun means nothing. You have been targeted (profiled). Today, Giuliot60 would have been his neigbor in the story, beaten and robbed. The threat of a gun is now empty because of NYC's gun laws. The threat of a gun is empty if no-one actually has a gun. Conversly, subway crime dropped to almost zero when Bernard Goetz shot and killer four muggers on a NYC subway in 1984 with an illegal handgun. Bernards act of self defense gave viability to the possability that a clean cut working person copuld actually be packing heat. Living in Texas now the threat that anyone could actually have a gun is a real deterant to crime.

Again, the focus to move away from these tragedies should be on parenting, mental illness and shortfalls of a society built around excessive individual rights that obstruct society. Legal gun ownership is not an excessive right that hurts society. A mother with the right to have firearms in the house with a mentally dangerous relative is an excessive right complicated by the fact that she condoned/encouraged/trained her mentally ill boy on how to use these weapons at a firing range. In this case we need to focus on the decisions made by the murdered mother. Homeschooling a child that may have been identified as a threat by the public school system. Our views of guns are shaped by what we see on TV.

Do you think convicted violent criminals should have limitations on rights? Absolutley, that is why they are no longer free. Why then is it considered in-humane in most states to have physically healthy inmates work on a chane gang to benefit society. Now the real question, if the penal system is the only place we have for mental illeness treatment that results in violence. Then we should focus on identifying people that have violent mental illness and work on a treatment or at least isolating that person so they can't harm society. Again, the rights of the individual are secondary to the safty of society.

For most people reading this post your reality is shaped by the fact that nothing has happended to you do=uring your lifetime. Therefore, you extrapolate that experience to everyone. I can tell you that when your world comes in contact with a violent criminal or a violent mentally challenged persons worls, your experiences are worthless up to that point unless you have some form of self defense. It's like saying, my house have never been robbed. Therefore, what world do you people live where your house could be robbed. The answer is the real world with your eyes wide open to a violence inherent in humans. Not closed to the odds that some day you or one of your family members may be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't carry a gun and never will. But I do know how to run or defend myself. If my wife is home alone and she is in danger from a 250 pound man... the only resort she has is to use a weapon. Even if she is a trained black belt. 100 pounds of women is not going to stop 250 pounds of crazy man.

[giuliot60]

It's a tough situation, and there is going to be a lot of discussion coming up soon in the political arena. Both sides have valid points. I don't own a gun, don't know if I'd ever get one, and would probably lean towards stronger restrictions and mental health research.

It's going to be a long road, so let me get back to my car.

[steve8462]

i have read each post in this thread and first of all i would like to say i'm damn proud to be associated with a group of well spoken, well informed people who choose not to live their lives with their heads up their ass like so many people in this country!!!

guns are not the problem. we need smarter gun laws not "more" gun laws. i seem to have no problem watching pulp fiction. its entertainment, a mere distraction. its an hour long or so and when its over i do something else. video games on the other hand seem to be designed to keep the player zoned out in front of the screen grasping the controller like a crack addled preying mantis! (a Greg Giraldo reference- may he rest in peace) each game seems to have a new version coming out every Christmas. kids spend long hours sucked into that world of make believe to the point that when they are not in it, they are talking about it, quoting phrases from it, acting it out with their friends. its like the old saying " if you tell the same lie enough times, you start to believe it yourself"!

i have first hand experience in trying to deal with the mental health system in this country. first of all, let me put it into perspective for you. mental health care is not a glamorous profession so of course less college students pursue it as a career. they want to be the "grey's anatomy" doctor or a hot shot plastic surgeon. only the people with a real passion for helping people choose this field and believe me, you wont retire rich from it.

i have found that most therapists in the town i live in cant see past your blue cross card and how much money they can get. i had to go through five of them before i was able to find somebody that genuinely seemed to care. the person i was trying to get help for struggled emotionally to try to do it for themselves. so you have people that don't want to get help trying to connect with people that just want your money! don't get me wrong, there are some wonderful and talented doctors out there, but the other ones are tainting your profession!

the health care system as a whole is broken beyond repair! corporations dictate the level and cost of your care and with having to answer to stockholders who want a steady increase of return on their investments, the money has to come from somewhere.

drug companies want to develop medicine that is going to bring them the biggest return on their investment so they focus on boner pills and weight control, blood pressure and cholesterol meds.(think about it-how come there isn't an orgasm pill for women!) research lacks on the less popular ailments.

there also seems to be the stigma that goes along with the stereotype of "crazy people" . i think to some extent every one of us has suffered a mental related issue at some time in their life whether it be depression, post traumatic stress, loss of a loved one or even having to deal with somebody who has a mental illness which effects everybody around the person who has it.(we love Fiat spiders! doesn't that count?)

dont even get me started on the hippa laws! this law was written with broad strokes and little thought. it allows the person with the mental illness to effectively manage and manipulate the people close to them making it more difficult to help them get the treatment they need.

getting people with mental illness onto disability is an absolute nightmare! if the government physically cant see your disability they tend not to believe you.

this is just my two cents worth. i truly hope i didn't offend anybody.

Steve-
proud gun owner and american who gives a shit!

[RRoller123]

I won't comment on the particular circumstances of my experiences being threatened other than to say they are not exaggerated in any way. It i snever a good idea to publicly discuss too many details of events like this. I will say however, that when I first moved up to NH in the late 70's, the FIRST thing that all my local friends warned me about was to be careful about NEVER go into someone's home or onto their property unannounced. We would never burgle or rob of course, but this was stil a standard cautionary commandment everyone got immediately when moving up there. In fact, the rate of home burglary was nearly nonexistent in the area I lived in at the time, and for obvious reasons. NH was then a free state, it is on the edge now, in fact has tipped pretty badly, but it may come back.

Anyway, criminals exist in every society, in London now they just use non-firearms weapons to wreak havoc upon the streets. In Chicago it is illegal firearms, along the southern US border and in N Mexico it is F&F corruption weapons causing tragedy constantly. Somewhere else it is something else.

But this notion that we somehow will be safer if we disarm the good guys is so ridiculous, I just can't understand why it gets so much traction. I think at the core of the notion is the utopian philosophical ideal that so many liberals live under. It is so fundamentally flawed that I remain astounded at how ingrained it has become in the culture, and how few poeple realize that all the great utopian models proposed over the centuries required absolute dictatorship and domination by a small set of the chosen "good" people to lead the masses into this bliss. Those people don't exist, and if they did, we wouldn't recognize them anyway. Thus we Americans tend to put our faith in God and Ourselves, in that order.

[TX82FIAT]

RRoler123, very well said. People are responsible for themselves in a free society. Today, more than ever, people want our government to solve problems and dictate actions. The more Government steps in to dictate how we should act the more we as a society have people that do not know how to act and our individual liberties are erroded.