The Terrible Tragedy in CT, and what do we do about it?

[aj81spider]

You can argue about underlying causes; you can argue about whether owning guns is a right; you can argue about fault and solutions. Those are all opinion questions, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. However the statistics are pretty clear about the cost that the US preference for gun ownership exacts on society. We continue to be willing to pay that price, but we should be up front about the societal trade offs we are making. You can like your guns. You can argue that you personally feel safer with them. However the statistics show that society as a whole is less safe.

The US has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world. Guns are illegal in the U.K.

In the US – population 311.5 million – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009, a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000. Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.

In the UK – population 56.1 million – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12, a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm.

Source:

http://fleshisgrass.wordpress.com/2012/ ... n-updated/

Personally I wish these topics wouldn't come up on FiatSpider. I try not to respond, but every once in a while cannot help myself.

[Gunsmith]

That said, many of the politicians are gun people, so wouldn't they have the same perspective?

The same reason politicians cave in on anything they believe in, they always exempt themselves. Remember they all have taxpayer funded security. Most all politicians also have a price for almost anything.

AJ I understand what you are thinking but try to understand there is a lot of missing data there. I have a lot of European friends and they can't seem to understand where these numbers come from as they do not feel they are accurate. They also say their jails are not very fun and most people try stay out of them. The different stats on violent crime come from bad reporting of crimes, a completely different sense about embarrassing or bringing shame to their family, harsh punishments for crimes and so on.

I too avoided the subject at first but I felt sometimes facts and clarity need to come out in the face of emotions.

Also I find it odd the gun owners are referred to as "Gun people" or the "The Gun culture" as if gun owners are some kind of sub culture or out of the mainstream? If we were of a certain race those titles would be considered racist wouldn't they? Keep in mind one out of every two homes in America has a firearm in it so that seems pretty mainstream to me?

[azruss]

interesting stats AJ. look at Great Britian where its illegal to own a firearm, the number of murders performed with a firearm is 7%. This says that 93% of murders are by some other means. This makes me think that without guns, people figure out another way to murder. Its also interesting to see the murder rate in the US is 3.5 times higher than Britian.
Seems to me that this is more a statement about the demeaner of the people than it is about firearms.
The bottom line is, will the restrictions of guns end the massacres we have seen. The hideous crimes we endure is a product of the people that perpetrate them. Even when getting a gun is difficult, these people still find a way to get one. If guns werent available would these people give up. I think like the 93% of Brits, they will just find another way.
My big objection to the focus on banning guns after an event like this, is we are moving the focus off the real problem. Until we are willing to face and solve the question why, the question of how is a moot point.

[surfingfreeman]

AJ excellent points! Something needs to be done, I think a start is with the assault rifles, here is a little blurb on the evolution of these types of firearms
http://gundata.org/blog/post/ak-47-vs-a ... and-facts/

"This enabled one soldier with a StG 44 to be able to pin down another group of forces under suppressive fire, while other soldiers could maneuver around to get a better advantage to overtake a force they were fighting."
This is exactly why a number of the recent multiple murders have involved these guns, I think I saw an ex-marine discussing how you can fire off 30-rounds in less than 15-seconds, the killing power of these firearms is incredible. Reports are that most of the children were shot multiple times (3-6) obviously raising the odds of a fatality. Use of these types of guns is also a problem for police when they engage someone with one of these firearms, they are simply overpowered especially when used in combination with certain types of bullets. So my question is why is there a need for these types of semi-automatic/automatic firearms?

So the firearms used in this latest atrocity were registered to the mother of the shooter (who shot her multiple times in the face) it's not clear exactly what mental problems he had, but it was said that she would take her sons to the firing range and he obviously had access to the guns. A better job has to be done to control who has access to firearms I think this means better background checks/licensing/waiting periods. And to place the blame on Hollywood and violence in movies is ridiculous, it's like the lame retort gun advocates use that goes something like "guns don't kill, people do", I'm looking forward to more debate on this subject.

Sent from my iPhone

[surfingfreeman]

When Florida created it's "shall issue" concealed weapons permit 20 years ago the media went nuts claiming we would have daily wild west gun fights in the streets. What happened was crime went down. Now there are still criminals trying to kill each other in the streets in some areas but the vast majority of them are not legally allowed to even posses one round of ammunition. There are now around one million concealed carry permit holders in the state not killing any innocent people.

"Gunsmith", you sure about your stats????????? Might want to look a little deeper!
According to the Violence Policy Center's database, 499 people have been killed by permit holders between May 2007 and November 2012, including 14 law enforcement officers, 23 people killed during mass shootings and 35 incidents of murder-suicide."
It's really frustrating when we enter into these sensitive debates and people just throw out misinformation! Do some research before spewing, the first thing that comes to mind.

[surfingfreeman]

Here is the link to the data
http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

[Gunsmith]

Surfingfreeman

I always appreciate your passion for things and our mutual love for surfing but I kind of have a lot of first hand information on this particular subject.

First off the violence policy center is infamous for skewing data. It has the least credibility out of all the antigun groups and it's stats have been debunked time after time even by the FBI. I'll bet you don't go to the NRA or Gun Owners of America for your stats as you would say they are skewed yet we are to swallow the anti-gun data as gospel? The founder of Gun Owners of America started out researching data to help ban firearms and when he was done with his book he had completely changed his mind.

Second the rifles you are referring to are actually real military Assault Weapons and not just semi automatic rifles that look similar to them. Remember our Spiders are not MG's or Ferraris despite the uneducated people's opinions that believe they are. My ex-wife's attorney referred to my Spider as an exotic Italian sports car and all though I was flattered it did not make it a Lamborgini.

I find it interesting that most people who are anti-gun say Hollywood and video games glorifying violence have little to no effect on people but the mere presence of a firearm turns people homicidle, I just don't get it?

Keep in mind just because a firearm is used does not mean it is was used for the wrong reason people do defend themselves everyday with firearms. The argument about the type of bullet is equally for nothing as that is Hollywood hype as well. There are in fact different bullets for different uses but no less or more deadly than the next.

I was recently at an international SWAT competition and all of the foreign teams I spoke with volunteered their thoughts that crime would be greatly reduced if law abiding citizens in their countries could own firearms like we do in this country. Why do you think they would say that?

Additionally I work with SWAT teams nearly every week and not one of them believes one single new gun law would help anything and believe me they do not keep their opinions to themselves. They also bring their family members to the range and to us for training. Now SWAT teams as you know usually face the worst of the worst of criminals and usually the best armed criminals which is why they call in the SWAT team yet they don't cry out for more gun control? Now there are exceptions to the rule some police departments in cities that already have the strictest gun laws always call for even more all the time but that is not the norm in the law enforcement world it's just the ones that the media likes to show case. Also most of the officers under these vocal leaders when polled don't share in the anti-gun opinion.

Also remember if we ban them they do not disappear like most anti gun people wish it's just that only criminals will have them. This means the existing bad guys will still have them and the existing gun owners that do not give them up will now be criminals by default and you think we have prison overcrowding now? I' m not saying people do not misuse firearms clearly they do but that is not do to a lack of laws. As mentioned in an earlier post most gun laws are not even enforced. Criminals are caught with guns everyday and that is usually the first charge that is dropped in the plea deal because it has the stiffest penalty.

If you have not heard of "Fast and Furious" the ATF's boondoggle of tracking guns you should read up on it. I will summarize it for you here. Our government gave money to bad guys guys to buy thousands of guns and told gun dealers to sell them the guns even though they new they were bad guys with the idea they could track the guns into Mexico and find the bad guys. Seem like a bad idea yet? So one of our Boarder Agents was shot and killed with one because in the area he was in he was not allowed to carry a gun himself make sense yet? So even though there are laws saying bad guys can't have guns our government spent millions of our tax dollars buying guns for Mexican drug cartels so they could track them which they obviously could not and we want to believe that more gun laws will help us? How will they help when our own government that is supposed to be working for us buys the guns and delivers them to the bad guys? It's hard for me to jump on board the band wagon to give up rights or ask for more restrictions when this kind of thing goes on.

I have found that when I convince a person with an anti-gun position to come with me to the range by the end of the day they have completely changed their position on the matter once they learned the facts first hand. That's not to say everyone who is ant-gun would but in more than 20 years of doing this I'm batting a thousand. These people were not simple push overs they were staunch anti-gun advocates their entire lives with strong convictions on the matter as you do and yet by the end of one trip to the range their mind was changed. Could I be the worlds best snake oil salesman or could once people are educated first hand change their opinion? What you don't see very often is people going the other way from gun owner to anti-gun. Kind of like you don't see a lot of people swimming to Cuba?

This debate has gone on in our country for some years now and won't stop anytime soon and may even keep going here

All of us wish there was some easy fix or simple solution but there isn't. I am also glad to see even with such strong opinions on the matter it has remained civil.

[RRoller123]

Disarmed populations cannot defend themselves, neither from the armed/unarmed elements of society, nor from their own governments:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... arlem.html

Anyway, I am going to back out of this discussion, as the debate is shifting away from what we can do to stop these violent outbursts by the mentally ill. I am willing to compromise on storage laws and punishment for illegal possession, and as stated, will gladly pay more taxes to build the new prisons to hold the perps. I will also support dramatically increased public sector spending to help identify, treat and monitor the mentally ill. I will also support some sort of change to the search and seizure laws to allow people on the street who are stopped for minor crimes, to be searched for weapons and charged if found. This last part is really tricky, as it involves the 4th amendment, but it would be reasonable to take a look at it.

[RRoller123]

Gunsmith you are right about taking people to the range! I take friends frequently and they always have a good time and a better understanding afterwards. My liberal friends have a miraculous transformation after we spend the afternoon shooting. Universally, they have a blast (no pun intended) and want to go again. LOL We should all take our friends (and doubters) to the range as frequently as possible.

And that is it for me, I am going back to my great little car now! Had the Spider up on the lift and found out that some PO modified the exhaust and deleted the middle resonator, and I now need to figure out what is to be done about it all, as the middle pipe is now rotted out.

[surfingfreeman]

Hi Gunsmith
You say the Violence Policy Center is notorious for skewing data, so I went on their site and found the first officer in Florida (on their list to be killed by a permitted concealed weapon owner), please look at the site and prove me WRONG! You can also search the officers name and find further information on the case. Is seemed your reply to my original post was long on words but short on substance, much like what the NRA does on the matter. As a scientist I deal with facts and data.
http://www.tampagov.net/dept_Police/inf ... l_Roberts/
Mike

[surfingfreeman]

After digging deeper it looks as though Delgado did not have a valid Florida CWP but may have had one from North Carolina where both states have reciprocity agreements regarding CWP's.

[TX82FIAT]

We are digging into details about murder rates in different countries and specific examples. I think this is all well and good to make your case. However, the catalyst for this debate in the tragedy in CT. As mentioned previously:

the firearms used in this latest atrocity were registered to the mother of the shooter (who shot her multiple times in the face) it's not clear exactly what mental problems he had, but it was said that she would take her sons to the firing range and he obviously had access to the guns.

We have mental illness and bad parenting. I know it is in bad taste to discuss a mother murdered by her son as a bad parent. However, I read several articles and watched a few news broadcasts yesterday. The monther was told to never turn her back on her own son. She home schooled him to keep him away from the autorities or recognition of how severe his problem was. This is in an effort to create some normalcy for the boy. However, where the monther crossed the line was putting deadly assult weapons in the hands of a dangerous person that was mentally ill. This is an unforgivable act by the mother that has played itself out to a deadly ending.

I think most people would agree that military assult rifles serve no purpose in general society. The catalyst for this debate is the combination of bad decisons by a parent and mental illness. This was preventable at the base in the home. We will find it hard to regulate or legislate the many social issues that occur in the home. Why do we have so many problems in the home in America? Again, we have a violent culture and the media, video games, movies are not helping us respect life.

[surfingfreeman]

Excellent points tx82fiat! A very complex problem with no easy solution, more the imperative to sit down a take a good "unbiased" look at the problem and demand that congress and the president take action. And for the record I am not against legal gun ownership.
Mike

[Daniel]

interesting video someone posted on another forum a must watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_7oSNk0vtM

[4uall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWsdj2x-so4