Might buy an 81 Spider, engine issues, questions

[Justin]

Important stuff in bold.
I'm considering buying this 81 spider. The vehicle appears to be in good condition, clean paint, OK interior. Its appears to have been cared for. According to the owner the engine has some problems. She had a mechanic check it out and this is what was found.

Seals to header are leaking oil
o2 Sensors need to be replaced
Fuel Injectors may need replacing
Starter needs to be replaced
Needs new fuel filter

Prior to calling the mechanic the owner said it only started intermittently and believed it was an electrical problem. Based on some quick research it seems like it would be cheap and fairly easy to get the Fiat running. Based on the issues the mechanic found do you think there could be anything else wrong? Will it be as cheap and easy to fix as I think?

Also, what should I look for if I go to buy it? I'm in California so I'm not expecting rust, but where should I look? Does Fiats reputation for unreliability apply to the 124? At just over 200k miles, how much longer will the engine last? What should I expect owning this car? For what it is, the price is right.

[spidernut]

Here is my personal opinion:

"Seals to header are leaking oil": There are no seals to the header...only an exhaust manifold gasket. This is a common problem but indicates the mechanic does not know Fiats. Gasket: $8 plus labor.

"o2 Sensors need to be replaced": There is only one sensor and it is very simple to replace. I don't know why he thinks it is bad. Did he emissions test it? Sensor: $32-$50 plus labor.

"Fuel Injectors may need replacing": $100 each plus labor. Not that hard to do, but did he test them or is he guessing? Injector: $55 rebuilt or $130 new EACH plus fuel hose and seals and labor.

"Starter needs to be replaced": Starter cost: $130-$205 plus labor

"Needs new fuel filter": Part $15 plus labor

"Prior to calling the mechanic the owner said it only started intermittently and believed it was an electrical problem": You'd need to find out what they mean exactly...did it crank and not start or crank sometimes and not crank over at other times. Could be a starter solenoid, could be an ignition switch, could be a bad wire chewed up by mice, etc.

"Based on some quick research it seems like it would be cheap and fairly easy to get the Fiat running." You probably could get it running for under $600...the question is would it run well?

"Based on the issues the mechanic found do you think there could be anything else wrong?": Not to be trite, but it is a Fiat...there could be a ton of things wrong! You need to see it running to check all electrical systems (wipers, lights, brake lights, hazard switch, gauges, courtesy lights, turn signals, etc.) You should put it on a rack and check the brake lines, fuel lines, U-joints, flex disc, driveshaft support, trailing arms, look for leaks, damage, etc.

"Will it be as cheap and easy to fix as I think?": Cheap - probably not. Easy - depends upon your mechanical and diagnostic skills. I find these cars pretty simple to work on, but I've been working on cars since the 1970s.

"Also, what should I look for if I go to buy it? I'm in California so I'm not expecting rust, but where should I look?": Floorboards just below the brake pedal where the tar-type floor insulation ends and the metal begins (closest to the firewall). Additional rust issues: Shock towers, fenderwells, rocker panels, edges of doors and trunk, inside trunk...if it is metal, it could be rusted. Normally it isn't an issue with California cars.

Other things to look for: cracks in the cross member, oil leaks, fuel leaks, air flow meter missing, broken, damaged or otherwise inoperable ($$$$$$$$$), frozen windshield wipers, dead wiper motor, wiring that has been hacked and spliced, rusted out seat bottoms, bad steering box.

"Does Fiats reputation for unreliability apply to the 124?": It isn't that Fiats are unreliable per se. I drive a Spider daily with no problems whatsoever. The most common problem pertains to bad or corroded wiring causing a host of issues with lighting, ignition system and accessories. The motor, trans and differential can last a very long time if maintained and treated well. Remember that you'd be buying a 31 year old car. Imagine buying a 1981 Pinto or Vega...what problems would you anticipate having?

"At just over 200k miles, how much longer will the engine last?" If it has not been rebuilt, it is probably close to death.

"What should I expect owning this car?": WAY more information is needed to make that determination. Because of the age and mileage of the car, you should expect some rather significant problems unless the work has been done by prior owners. 200K miles is a lot of mileage. I'd recommend driving the car to test everything out first.

"For what it is, the price is right.": $500-$750.

You said you're located in California....if you tell us what city, there are many on this forum who would be more than happy to either look at the car with you and advise you, or provide the name of a good Fiat mechanic in your area.

Best of luck!

[So Cal Mark]

one important issue is how long the car has been in a non-running condition. If it has been sitting for more than a year, the entire fuel system needs to drained and flushed. The brakes may seize once you start driving the car and the rear shocks may be seized. The driveline should be inspected also. If the age of the timing belt is unknown, that should be on the list of parts to replace
It does sound like the mechanic that did the inspection isn't real familiar with Spiders.

[RRoller123]

One of the biggest battles with these great little cars is rust. Unless you are good with cutting/patching/welding/body work etc. (I am not) this is a big consideration when buying one. A thorough under side inspection is a must. Shock towers, rocker panels, floor boards in cabin, etc etc.

[narfire]

Kind of two schools of thought.... If you have the mechanical or/and bodywork skills a cheap car that you can work on over time and get sorted to your satisfaction is one avenue. The other of course is pay more up front for a rust free car that runs and can pass any smog testing you might have to deal with and then drive it while doing the things,if any, to put your "stamp" on it. The first option might be say $500-$1000.00 and you spent several months of your time and another perhaps 1-$3000 on parts,tops,engine re-build...whatever chasing the gremlins out.. I've sold an excellent car (my opinion ) for $4000.00 that stopped,started, ran really well,rust free with a good top. Several were for sale here for awhile before they sold. Brad Artique's car come to mind.
Time to think which way works for you...
Good luck
Chris

[azruss]

the achille's heal on these cars is the tranny. classic for popping out of gear. If the tranny has 200k on it, i would not expect it to be good. without having a driving car, there is no way to know its condition. If you buy it that cheap and find out its DOA, you could probably get your money back parting the car out.

[katsi]

Their are a few points to pay close attention to rust.

A thorough under side inspection is a must. Shock towers, rocker panels, floor boards in cabin, etc etc.

Also, pay close attention to the cross members. Jack it up and make sure the motor and suspension is firmly secured to the car via the front cross member. Also, check the rear cross member as well. Look clostly where the rear suspension bolts to the rear cross member. Finally, make sure that the section on the firewall where the steering box is located is not rusty and that the steering box is firmly in place. Also, check those seat riders (don't know the name but where the seats bolt on). Those have a tendency to rust out as well. finally, check the floor boards expecially where the transmission support attaches and inside the transmission tunnle. Fender rust is fixable the rest is structural.

The starter is probably going to be the hardest to replace as the bolts that hold it on are accessed from the other side of the transmission. I have tried and tried and can't get them out. Went to the local mechanic and he gave up and did not charge me either. My starter is hit and miss. Totally sucks.

Don't want to start anything with Azruss but I wouldn't worry too much about the transmission. Thier are guys on this site that will rebuild them for 75 bucks plus parts. Most likely they only need new sincros and someone who know how to take them out and put back in. The trannies weigh about 35 pounds so shipping would probably cost more than the rebuild.

Personally, everything on the car is replaceable but one has to keep in mind that these are uni-bodied cars. That means that the car is the frame and it needs to be in great shape in order for the rest of the parts to have a place to operate properly. RUST RUST RUST - after that, think about repair costs.

[wizard124]

The smog check is your first major hurdle. I bought a good running engine but a new cataalytic converter plus FI adjustments, timing and labor was $600 to get itto pass. It has 56000 miles.

If the current owner won't smog it or work with you, I say you can find a better buy.

[fiathead]

Based on your description, this could be a good buy. Or, it could be a bunch of work to sort lots of stuff out. 200K is a lot of miles for these cars. They are great little cars, but they are not cars that can live with neglected maintenance. But, if the current owner has records covering the required timing belt changes as well as covering all of the other parts that would almost certainly have been changed in all of those miles, it might be worth considering. The fact that you don't mention the maintenance records leads me to believe they do not exist. With no records, you have to expect every mechanical part on that car to be on its last legs until you can prove that they are not.

The up side is that these are really good little cars. There is little on them that cannot be handled by someone that either has experience or that has the aptitude and wants to gain the experience. My recommendation is to take your time and know what you are getting when you finally do buy a Spider. California is full of Spiders for sale, from pure junk to gems that only need another coat of wax to be complete. Don't jump on a deal until you know it's a good deal. There is always another car out there. One other thing to consider is the CA smog laws. IIRC, an 81 is still required to pass smog inspection and there could be back DMV fees to consider.

Hopefully, you join the family of Fiat drivers be it in this car or a better one if need be. There is something about these cars that just gets under your skin.

[Justin]

Here is my personal opinion:

"Seals to header are leaking oil": There are no seals to the header...only an exhaust manifold gasket. This is a common problem but indicates the mechanic does not know Fiats. Gasket: $8 plus labor.

"o2 Sensors need to be replaced": There is only one sensor and it is very simple to replace. I don't know why he thinks it is bad. Did he emissions test it? Sensor: $32-$50 plus labor.

"Fuel Injectors may need replacing": $100 each plus labor. Not that hard to do, but did he test them or is he guessing? Injector: $55 rebuilt or $130 new EACH plus fuel hose and seals and labor.

"Starter needs to be replaced": Starter cost: $130-$205 plus labor

"Needs new fuel filter": Part $15 plus labor

"Prior to calling the mechanic the owner said it only started intermittently and believed it was an electrical problem": You'd need to find out what they mean exactly...did it crank and not start or crank sometimes and not crank over at other times. Could be a starter solenoid, could be an ignition switch, could be a bad wire chewed up by mice, etc.

"Based on some quick research it seems like it would be cheap and fairly easy to get the Fiat running." You probably could get it running for under $600...the question is would it run well?

"Based on the issues the mechanic found do you think there could be anything else wrong?": Not to be trite, but it is a Fiat...there could be a ton of things wrong! You need to see it running to check all electrical systems (wipers, lights, brake lights, hazard switch, gauges, courtesy lights, turn signals, etc.) You should put it on a rack and check the brake lines, fuel lines, U-joints, flex disc, driveshaft support, trailing arms, look for leaks, damage, etc.

"Will it be as cheap and easy to fix as I think?": Cheap - probably not. Easy - depends upon your mechanical and diagnostic skills. I find these cars pretty simple to work on, but I've been working on cars since the 1970s.

"Also, what should I look for if I go to buy it? I'm in California so I'm not expecting rust, but where should I look?": Floorboards just below the brake pedal where the tar-type floor insulation ends and the metal begins (closest to the firewall). Additional rust issues: Shock towers, fenderwells, rocker panels, edges of doors and trunk, inside trunk...if it is metal, it could be rusted. Normally it isn't an issue with California cars.

Other things to look for: cracks in the cross member, oil leaks, fuel leaks, air flow meter missing, broken, damaged or otherwise inoperable ($$$$$$$$$), frozen windshield wipers, dead wiper motor, wiring that has been hacked and spliced, rusted out seat bottoms, bad steering box.

"Does Fiats reputation for unreliability apply to the 124?": It isn't that Fiats are unreliable per se. I drive a Spider daily with no problems whatsoever. The most common problem pertains to bad or corroded wiring causing a host of issues with lighting, ignition system and accessories. The motor, trans and differential can last a very long time if maintained and treated well. Remember that you'd be buying a 31 year old car. Imagine buying a 1981 Pinto or Vega...what problems would you anticipate having?

"At just over 200k miles, how much longer will the engine last?" If it has not been rebuilt, it is probably close to death.

"What should I expect owning this car?": WAY more information is needed to make that determination. Because of the age and mileage of the car, you should expect some rather significant problems unless the work has been done by prior owners. 200K miles is a lot of mileage. I'd recommend driving the car to test everything out first.

"For what it is, the price is right.": $500-$750.

You said you're located in California....if you tell us what city, there are many on this forum who would be more than happy to either look at the car with you and advise you, or provide the name of a good Fiat mechanic in your area.

Best of luck!

Great points, especially about the mechanic. When I priced out all the parts on eBay it came out to ~$400, but those were probably cheap parts. I'll do all the work myself with the help of my dad who's restored multiple cars including an MGA. The car won't be getting restored, just fixed, it doesn't need it and I'd never get my money out anyways.

I haven't been able to get on the phone with the seller yet, but it sound like this was her daily driver until she got something newer. She said she's selling because she can't afford to keep it. She also said that it would likely need to be towed home which suggests to me that the engine does run, but poorly (bad injectors?) and she doesn't expect it to start because of the starter. I asked but haven't received a response.

From the sounds of things the seller is honest and was driving it recently enough that they would know if anything was wrong with the electrical system aside from the starter. I will of course check everything out if I can but they haven't been mentioned and the seller has informed me of some far more insignificant flaws. I'm reluctant to mention where exactly I'm from, the car is a good enough deal that I would expect someone from this forum to buy it before I do.

[spidernut]

I found the advertisement for the car. The body looks excellent from the pictures. From what I can see, the interior it is shot but I didn't see anything that would be a difficult fix. It still comes down to the running gear. It does show 200,000 miles +, so there's a significant possibility of major problems.

For the price she's asking, you should go for it if you can take it for a test drive to ensure the tranny and differential are good and that the motor doesn't blow oil smoke or knock. There's enough there that you could probably part it out and at least break even if you can't get it running.

I'd recommend making a decision as fast as possible....that's a very good price for what I can see in the photos. I also noted ads for all the replacement parts you'd need even if the motor, trans or diff are shot. All were reasonably priced.

[BEEK]

the achille's heal on these cars is the tranny. classic for popping out of gear. If the tranny has 200k on it, i would not expect it to be good. without having a driving car, there is no way to know its condition. If you buy it that cheap and find out its DOA, you could probably get your money back parting the car out.

i have had trannys last over 300k in my 124 coupe. the biggest problem is people put ep oil in them, that kills the syncro's. plus transmissions are cheap and easy to repair too

[Justin]

I found the advertisement for the car. The body looks excellent from the pictures. From what I can see, the interior it is shot but I didn't see anything that would be a difficult fix. It still comes down to the running gear. It does show 200,000 miles +, so there's a significant possibility of major problems.

For the price she's asking, you should go for it if you can take it for a test drive to ensure the tranny and differential are good and that the motor doesn't blow oil smoke or knock. There's enough there that you could probably part it out and at least break even if you can't get it running.

I'd recommend making a decision as fast as possible....that's a very good price for what I can see in the photos. I also noted ads for all the replacement parts you'd need even if the motor, trans or diff are shot. All were reasonably priced.

Are you sure we're looking at the same ad? Silver paint, Ripped drivers seat, build up on back window? If so I really appreciate your opinion on it.

[spidernut]

One in the same...

Description as follows. Note - I removed the price:

MUST SELL...1st PERSON WITH $(XXX) CASH IN HAND TAKES THIS COLLECTOR'S ITEM HOME! It has served me well the past few years but now has some issues that I cannot afford to address. It runs but not so great and has been sitting, so will need a jump start, but probably best to tow it. There is an oil leak, some issues with the starter and needs new fuel injectors. There are tears in the drivers side seat and also in the top. Additionally, the back window has developed some build up on it which it makes it almost impossible to see out of. You would need to drive it with the top down in order to drive safely, until you got the top replaced. There are minor tears in the dash as you can see in the pictures. All it needs is some TLC and this car will be worth 4-5 times the amount I am selling it for!

I didn't see any rust in the photos, I didn't see any dents in the body. The top didn't look as bad as she indicated, The driver's seat it toast....you can buy the foam and an upholstery set from the Fiat vendors. It has the original carpet which is very faded, but a similar style carpet is available at Lowes for about $60. Just cut to fit! The cracks in the dash are common, but can be covered with a dash cap. I'm sure the lower console is a mess but you can get a cap for it as well. Again, the issue will be the running gear. As I mentioned, I saw a complete motor, trans and diff on Craigslist....all priced pretty well.

You could sell the door panels, gauges, hood, trunk, doors, wood on the dash, door locks, wheels, luggage rack, lights, side markers, etc., for pretty close to the asking price for the entire car. You could always go there with $200 less than the asking price and wave the cash in front of her. That would make it a smokin' deal. If she insisted on full price, it still seems like a good deal (again, depending upon the condition of the motor, transmission and differential).

John

[whiterabbit]

It's a '81.
I have a '81 and it only had 78 thousand on the clock and you still wind up under the hood or under the car alot. Fun cool little car but it's an older car. If it ain't worn out or not working it will take a crap when it starts being used hard and often. Mine ran fine but starter went out,ignition took a dump,injector plugged up,brakes started leaking,relay went belly up, etc when it hit the road alot... Fiats fault? Nope! Just an older car and it's part and parcel with older cars. Things wear out and things need fix'n.
Good price? Depends on you and how much you want it and how big of a tool set you have. I consider any older car a "project" for the first 2 years till the obvious problems are fixed and those that were border line fail and get repaired under use.
I learned along time ago you never get back what $$ you have invested in a car. You do get more than $$ though!