Well she is home...

[mPedro08]

If block mounted, that could be pieces of a broken aux shaft....does it have a manual fuel pump and if so, is that working?

[giuliot60]

Hard to tell. You should place something next to it for scale.

[tdskip]

Hard to tell. You should place something next to it for scale.

Well that is a good point. How is this;

[digitech]

Looks like a valve shim to me.

[tdskip]

Looks like a valve shim to me.

Thanks. Would you try to turn the engine over by hand at this point? Pull the valve covers and eyeball everything before doing that?

Is this what the shim that aren't broken into four pieces look like?

[Fi8spider]

One possibility.
A little cheat that I have uncovered over time regarding valve shims is when a shim is too thin for the desired application and a thin washer is placed under the shim to build it up.

What happens over time is that this thin washer (usually the wrong diameter (too small)) usualy starts swirling around under the original shim and starts turning into and almond shape, if this decentralises and wears down enough over time it will create an uneven surface for the top shim to sit on and eventually create enough of a gap under one side of the shim for it to lever on and snap, or shatter as you have seen.

Definately cam covers off and inspection time since you haven't retrieved all the pieces, just check that the cam timing marks all line up in case a piece has jambed between the cam lobe and follower momentarily locking up the cam and making it skip a tooth or so. Fingers crossed I'm wrong.

[tdskip]

One possibility.
A little cheat that I have uncovered over time regarding valve shims is when a shim is too thin for the desired application and a thin washer is placed under the shim to build it up.

What happens over time is that this thin washer (usually the wrong diameter (too small)) usualy starts swirling around under the original shim and starts turning into and almond shape, if this decentralises and wears down enough over time it will create an uneven surface for the top shim to sit on and eventually create enough of a gap under one side of the shim for it to lever on and snap, or shatter as you have seen.

Definately cam covers off and inspection time since you haven't retrieved all the pieces, just check that the cam timing marks all line up in case a piece has jambed between the cam lobe and follower momentarily locking up the cam and making it skip a tooth or so. Fingers crossed I'm wrong.

Thank you for the detailed post, cam covers will come off. I ddn't get any strange noises and she had been turning freely so I may get lucky here as to damage.

Do I need to pull the pan as well to see what if anything has worked its wa down there?

One more question if I may - what else is the drive that the distributor meshes with connected to? In other words, if it wasn't just the distributor drive that was impacted but the drive it picks up wha other nastiness should I be expecting?

Thanks for the help guys - very much appreciated.

[Fi8spider]

Thank you for the detailed post, cam covers will come off. I ddn't get any strange noises and she had been turning freely so I may get lucky here as to damage.

Do I need to pull the pan as well to see what if anything has worked its wa down there?

Well if some fragments did make their way down It would be highly unlikely that they will cause any grief now. The oil pump pick up has a strainer on it. If you're still uneasy about it the pan can come out but it's not that straight forward as clearance between the cross member and pan is narrow. Undo engine mounts from the cross member, if you have an engine hoist great, remove the hood and lift from above, I have removed an oil pan by jacking up the engine by placing a decent block of wood under the front of the trans and jacking the whole unit up as far it can go. A real pain and a fair bit of jiggling around. Make sure you're doing this safely by chocking up the wheels and using good quality car stands to supprt the body

One more question if I may - what else is the drive that the distributor meshes with connected to? In other words, if it wasn't just the distributor drive that was impacted but the drive it picks up wha other nastiness should I be expecting?

The distributor is driven by a gear which is intergrated (cut into) the Exhaust cam shaft. A follower with no shim on it would mean that the cam lobe is making contact directly with the follower, not good for either the cam or follower. Aside from this the valve under that follower would not be lifting properly probably the reason the engine wont start.

Don't forget to check that cams and crank all align with markers at Top Dead Centre before you start pulling things apart.
Rotor button should be pointing towards number 4 spark plug lead in the distributor cap when it's at TDC if you want to check that too
Use the search function if you're unsure as there has been numerous discussions on the subject.

[tdskip]

Thanks for the help and the primer on the drive/oil system.

Turns out I've got even bigger issues to deal with.

Turns out engine isn't actually turning over, it is just the starter. I made a note to watch the distributor and timing belt when I bumped her this AM (after making sure all the fragments were removed) - no movement on the timing belt.

Uh oh.

So maybe the starter is just not fully seated home, or make that drive has sheered, or who knows, but arguably not a great development. Ha

[Fi8spider]

So is the starter working?

Probably best you take the timing cover off, knock it into 4th gear with the ebrake off and pull her forward while looking to see if the crank gear and cams are turning.

How did you get the rest of the shim out, did you get the cam covers off?
It is a bit hard to tell at first with all the oil around but did you see which exh valve the shim came off?

Don't crank her over anymore until you can assertain that the timing belt is fine and that all marks are lined up.
If you do have a timing belt issue pounding a piston into the valves will only add more damage to a probably salvagable head. Once again Fingers crossed that I'm wrong.

[tdskip]

So is the starter working?

Good morning/evening. The starter engages and turns away, but turns out it isn't turning over the engine. I know that seems like a pretty dumb thing not to have realized but this is my first 124 and the engine capacity is pretty small by comparison to my other cars so I just assumed it was a high torque starter (based on maintenance record I was given with the car) and that is what it sounded like.

It wasn't until I realized the distributor wasn't turning I realized something beyond just power to the coil was the issue.

So it turns out it is even more, um, interesting. I just put her in 2nd gear and rolled her, and no movement on the timing belt that way either. So while the starter may be an issue it is more than that...

[Fi8spider]

Oh. Sounds like shes spat a timing belt if you've tried rolling her in gear and no movement.
Plenty of help here mate and parts are still around.

I feel this is still a very feasble car to fix and enjoy.

[tdskip]

Oh. Sounds like shes spat a timing belt if you've tried rolling her in gear and no movement.
Plenty of help here mate and parts are still around.

I feel this is still a very feasble car to fix and enjoy.

Looks that way, although the belt is still in place and feels snug which seems odd to me, but what do I know . Insert "not much!" here:_______________.

The belt looks to be sitting properly in the cam gears (right term?), so if it isn't moving wouldn't that mean that where the belt is driven is where the problem is? What is my next step on isolating the specific problem?

I'll get her sorted and back on the road BTW, a bit disappointing to be sure at this point but this is how things go sometimes.

I very much appreciate the help - especially given your time zone!

[tdskip]

Well, I found the problem. One of them anyway.

The valve shim either broke up or came loose and broke up. I recovered the missing bits of the shim except for one pie shaped slice when is stuck in between the head and the cam shaft.



The head is toast, the shim seating area was damaged so I can't see a new shim/assembly seating properly. I also can't image the shim being wedged where the cam shaft is did the cam any good.

[giuliot60]

Sorry to hear that. May be a good excuse to do a work up on the heads. I'm also sure someone has a set of heads for your car. Check parts for sale and parts wanted sections of the various Fiat Spider sites. The Facebook page is also a good source: http://www.facebook.com/groups/fiatspid ... 950673270/

I'm glad you have a good outlook towards the car needing work. They all do to some extent, but knowing issues can be resolved is half the battle.

Good luck.