Running power to garage and shed, pipe size.

[spiderrey]

Thanx Azruss. There will be no heater, dosent get cold enough in So cal for that. Load center info is helpful.

[maytag]

copper wire is very expensive (dont use aluminum), so the less you run the better.

unless you're really old, and remember crappy aluminum wire, or unless you're talking about aluminum romex, there is no reason to say this.

There was a day when aluminum wire was a bad idea, because of the expansion rate. As it would generate heat, it would expand and deform around the lugs' set-screws. Then when it would cool, it would leave the connection "loose", and that would create all sorts of issues.
This is no longer the case. The advent of compact aluminum has negated all of the bad parts of aluminum wiring, with the exception of needing a larger wire for any given ampacity.

but definitely stay away from ALuminum Romex. If anybody is still making it (I doubt it) then it's certainly not UL listed.

[azruss]

looking at your pix, you have a pretty old load center off your meter. see if it has a label on the cover that lists its maximum capacity. lets look at your load
compressor 15a
welder 20a
lights 6@100watts 6 amps
sanders/drills/ polishers/etc. 3 amps
with just this stuff, you are pushing 50 amps.
That is the minimum load i would wire for.

[maytag]

No main breaker here.

#2 Cmpressor, 15 amps

welder 15 amps

sandblast cabinet is just a light bulb. The rest is done off the compressor.
#3, Its a 50' run to the garage from the panel. That included going up and down from the ground. Its another 50' back at an angle the get to the shed. The garage is currently useing two 20 amp breakers.
Does that cover it ?

Your home must have a main point of disconnect somewhere. even if that is the main breaker at the house-panel inside.

Here's what I would do: I'd pull off the main buss there in your meter-base, straight into an enclosure with a 60a breaker in it. Hang that on the wall directly below your meter base. ~$30

then run your conduit. For a 60a service to the garage, you'll need #6 copper, or #4 aluminum. You'll run (3) conductors of that size (2 hots and a neutral) and then a reduced-size ground. (go one size smaller than the wire you use). All of that will fit in the 1" conduit you asked about. (however: there are lots of really good, very highly rated direct-bury products available right now, if you wanted to look at them. They meet code, and are not horribly expensive)

from there, install your load center. You should get one with a MCB (Main Circuit Breaker) so that you have a means of disconnect at your garage, and get one with about 6x spaces (a 1p takes 1x, a 2p takes 2x). Your compressor photo doesn't show me what the electrical load is, or the HP rating. But if you are confident it is a 15a load, then get a 2p20a breaker. Then put in a couple of 1p20a breakers for everything else, including one that will run everything at your shed. Use #10 to the shed. 2 conductors and a reduced-size ground.

Does all of that make sense?

[spiderrey]

I took a pic of the wrong tag on the compressor.

I see no point of disconnect anywhere.


Question. What is a main buss?
Direrct bury products? example? is it simpler to just pull wire?
Thank you everyone for all the info.
It mostly seems clear now.

[spiderrey]

Going to buy the pipe and boxes in the mornin. Gonna get to lay some pipe tommrow. Thanx guys.

[narfire]

Weird, never seen anything like that before.... wellllll before I moved into my present shop, there was a hole knocked through the brick to get at the power before it got to the meter...
Rey, does your house have breakers or fuses? You mentioned it was built in 52 . I've always gone to my main breaker box in the house, put a 30 or 50 or whatever I could, breaker in and then the 220 from there to the sub panel at the destination.I could cut the power from the house if ever needed.

[dmwhiteoak]

I told you Maytag was the expert here. Tell me I can't read people? Its good to know we have such a vast knowledge at hand. Thanks Mark.

[azruss]

here is how your power lays out below the meter. your main buss is the 2 matching vertical straps coming out of the meter. these are both 110v volt lines. the one running down the center is your neutral. if you look at most of your breakers, they span the center and the outside bars for 110v. the ones like the 20a at the top span the 2 outside bars and thus 220v. I'm not sure what is available to connect to those straps. Might be able to find a 60a 220v breaker to fit your box. the modern ones just snap into place. If not, then you are down to a separate breaker box outside of this one. DANGER! those straps are hot and there is no way to shut off the power without the power company doing it at the street. My house has a box like yours with no main disconnect built into the box, but the power was routed in thru a 100a breaker to service those buss bars. Code wiring requires 4 leads. 2 hot leads, a neutral, and ground. my well informed neighbor told me it is no longer kosher to use an undersized ground anymore. The choice of running conduit or underground romex style wires should be determined by the amount of digging you expect in the lawn. conduit always give an early warning that you've hit something you shouldnt. Also, if you ever decide to upgrade your wiring, it is much easier to do with conduit. The negative is it is much harder to pull wire thru conduit.
Now we get into the dark side of electricity. your compressor amps are rated at 240v. very few locations have 240v anymore and many can be as low as 208v. the lower the volts, the more amps that motor will draw to achieve power. This means at 208v, that motor will draw 15% more amps than shown on the data plate.

[Zippy]

I don't understand why so many people are afraid of getting a permit. If you get a permit the inspector will make sure you do it right and that it's safe. There is so much wrong information out there that getting a permit is the best thing a non professional can do to protect themselves and their family from harm. Not that most people care but not getting a permit is breaking the law. If someone gets hurt the lablity is enormous.

During my 40 years as an electrician I have helped many homeowners do their own electrical work, as long as they got a permit. I have even helped people in Home Depot get what they needed to do their project right.

My opinion: Get a permit, do it right and don't take short-cuts.

[maytag]

[quote="azruss"]my well informed neighbor told me it is no longer kosher to use an undersized ground anymore. [/quote

doh! I didn't realize we had a well-informed-neighbor we were consulting on this! Better leave me out of this then. It's okay though, I've got too much work I should be doing in my ELECTRICAL CONTRACTING BUSINESS anyway.

I can assure you that reduced-size grounds are still very much 'kosher'. As a matter of fact, they are used every day in millions of new construction projects all over the country. But once again, we should differentiate somewhat: on smaller circuits, (#10 and #12) it was determined (in '68, as I recall?) that the smaller ground did not provide sufficient path to reliably trip the protective device (breaker), so in these instances, they were no longer approved in NEC. This is why current romex or MC product has a full-size ground for sizes smaller than 8awg. But an 8/3 (for instance) has a #10 ground. A 6/3 has a #8 ground, etc etc etc.

So your neighbor is right, but not in the scenario we are talking about.
And your neighbor is old.

but if you would like to run a 100% ground, that is great. even better.

[maytag]

I don't understand why so many people are afraid of getting a permit. If you get a permit the inspector will make sure you do it right and that it's safe. There is so much wrong information out there that getting a permit is the best thing a non professional can do to protect themselves and their family from harm. Not that most people care but not getting a permit is breaking the law. If someone gets hurt the lablity is enormous.

During my 40 years as an electrician I have helped many homeowners do their own electrical work, as long as they got a permit. I have even helped people in Home Depot get what they needed to do their project right.

My opinion: Get a permit, do it right and don't take short-cuts.

I hear ya Zippy, but I also understand the other side of it.
Many MANY inspectors will make things very, very difficult on a homeowner / DIY-er. They do this on purpose, for several reasons; sometimes it's a simple power trip. But sometimes it is a calculated effort on their part to keep homeowners from doing work that the inspector's buddies (who are licensed professionals) should be doing. I'm sure there are many other reasons too. But whatever the reasons, they can make it very, very painful on a homeowner. And then it costs them a bunch of money too.

[jimincalif]

Re permits, Zippy is right of course, but cities are their citizens' worst enemies sometimes. Years ago a friend had some relatively minor work done, probably on a par with what Rey is talking about. As I recall it took hours of direct dealing with the city, a day off work, and a couple of weeks of hurry-up-and-wait for the permit, then they added the value of the work to the home's assessed value so he will pay 1% of that project to the county every year forever until he sells it.

Maybe some cities have a streamlined process for minor work, but reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw (not on a Fiat, but gotta get some auto content in here, right)?

"Make welfare as hard to get as a building permit".

Probably a California thing....

[spiderrey]

Zippy,im not afraid of a permit.Its just not necessary for this.Im fully capable of getting this done ceeorrectly and saftly.No worries.Besides the dam?n state just reassessed my house at over $100,000.00 of what it is actually worth. They dont need any more of my money. If I wasnt concerned about getting it right I wouldnt have stopped my work today to get this good advice.:

[azruss]

I spend a good portion of my professional time securing permits. This is a process that has gotten entirely out of control. this is not just a california issue but they are probably the worst.
Here is my complaint. The government pays good money for expert experienced planners, reviewers, and inspectors to work for them. If they are experts in their area, you could sure fool me. I had one guy show up for an electrical inspection and spent 20 minutes in his truck reading code. everytime he would call me on something, i would have to tell him where in the code it was permitted. Beyond that, they are so afraid of being sued, they no longer make any judgements on their own. If you have anything out of the ordinary, you are required to hire an engineer to approve your plan. If you are installing anything without a UL listing, you are out of luck without an engineers approval. This means if you want to start a machine shop using the best equipment in the world, japanese and german, you have a very hard battle on your hand. (the are CE not UL approved). Much of it you cant do if you are not licensed, especially if it is commercial. Here is an example of what we are faced with. Just this last week we applied for a permit to install a propane tank and gasline at a commercial facility that installed a powdercoat booth. It was to be installed in an enclosed, gated yard. not visible from the street. When we submitted our plans, they required the tank to be moved because it consumed 2 parking places. We had to point out to them that the number of remaining parking places met the minimum number. Not good enough, they still wanted us to move the tank into the landscape, build a screen wall, add extended landscape area with plants and curbing that would encroach on the parking we just vacated. These are changes required by the planning department having nothing to do with safety. We had a meeting with planning and fire for 2 hours arguing on our customers behalf. The fire guy called us later than afternoon apologizing for his compadres lack of cooperation and gave us the name of his superior to contact. The only thing accomplished was puting the tank back to its original position, not having to had any addition landscape but still having to build a 6' screen wall on 2 sides, an addition that will more than double the cost of the entire installation. Here is the kicker. the wall required is in violation of international fire code. When we point that out and how that opens liability they dont care. For anything i do for myself personally, i would not pull a permit unless absolutely required. And, yes, i would do everything to code.