Camshaft noise

[SouthwestSpider]

I've rebuilt the motor, new head, valve seals etc. I didn't replace the camshaft seals.
Recently after an 80 mile round trip (with a 6 hour rest between each leg) when I got back to the garage, the motor was making noise similar to a motor that is low on oil. I checked the oil and it was full. I have an oil leak at the front of the block but it's hard to ascertain where it is coming from specifically. I plan on changing the camshaft seals, but I'm still baffled as to why it's making the noise. Prior to this trip it ran quietly. I didn't do a valve adjustment so that will be my task after I replace the camshaft seals.
Any ideas on the cause of the noise? Perhaps a direction to follow?

[majicwrench]

OK, a new head, rebuilt motor, and you didn't change the cam seals?? How would they rebuild the head?? I'm confused.
Anyway, soooo many things can make noise. Check valve clearance. Make sure cam pulleys on tight. Make sure crank pulley on tight.
Hows oil pressure?
Keith

[SouthwestSpider]

Now you have me confused. The head to which I refer was separate from the camshaft housings, perhaps the expression 'rebuilt the motor' is incorrect, I put a new head gasket on and had the cylinder head re-surfaced, the valve seals replaced and the cylinder head cleaned.

Perhaps I'm missing the point here, since I'm not a trained or experienced mechanic, but aren't cam seals those at either end of the camshaft housing? Those are the seals I didn't replace. Unless there is a term I don't understand. I thought that where the camshaft housings mate with the cylinder head are called gaskets. So it would seem reasonable then that the head could be rebuilt without touching the cam seals. Have I missed something or perhaps I didn't explain it correctly. You know that I'm referring to the camshafts which are encased in housings that are separate from the cylinder head - correct?

Thanks for the suggestions.

[chrisfiat]

so whats your oil pressure, are the sprockets and pullies all tight?

[majicwrench]

Duh, of course it's possible to not change the came seals and work on the head, so I should not have commented about that.
Keith

[So Cal Mark]

I too was confused. "rebuilt engine" carries with it the implication that the engine was actually rebuilt, not repaired with a few parts. To replace the head and not adjust valves is pretty crazy, to say the least

[BEEK]

ok, what im assuming is you removed the head, removed the camshaft housings from the head. had a machine shop surface the head and replace the valve seals. then you reassembled the head and installed it. and now there is noise.

if that is correct, valve adjustment is most likely the issue. you cannot just replace the lower camshaft housing gaskets without adjusting the valves, each gasket is a different thickness. if the machine shop cut the valves and seats, that also changed the clearance. if the valves were not put back in the same holes, that changed the clearance, if the tappet cups werent put back on the same valves, that changed the clearance.. get the idea?

the easy thing is all you need to do is adjust the valves. and replace the cam seals

[SouthwestSpider]

There is so much to learn about terms and expressions. Which is why this forum works so well for novices, but without knowing what questions to ask there is a lot of stumbling. I wrongly concluded that if I did nothing to the camshafts in their housings that there would be no change when reassembled. Of course to an experienced person - all the factors described to repair the cylinder head would lead them to conclude that a valve adjustment is necessary. DUH! Makes me crazy as was suggested. I guess some forms of logic come with the experience and expertise. Just like using the word rebuilt, vice re-assembled - I would never have used the word if I had known - but I will be mindful of those nuances!
So - I will follow all the advice and adjust the valves, check the bolts and so forth.
---Keith was right on the money - there was a pulley bolt which had loosened half a turn. Ouch! How much loctite do you need on these things???

[So Cal Mark]

shouldn't need loctite if the cam bolts are tighten properly

[SouthwestSpider]

Would the loosened camshaft pulley bolt allow oil to leak???

[maytag]

Would the loosened camshaft pulley bolt allow oil to leak???

not in and of itself. but a loosened bolt could certainly lead to failure of the seals.

No need to feel bad about using the wrong terminology, as you commented above. We all learn as we go. And as you point out, the nuances of certain terms and phrases can very from forum to forum, and group to group. Most of the folks here are quite reasonable and generous in the offers to help. as a matter of fact, I think it's possible I'm the biggest jack-a$$ here... and I'll still help any way I can!

[majicwrench]

Ah Maytag, you are THE most agreeable person on the forum to disagree with, always a gentleman even when you are wrong
Me, someone called me grouchy a few weeks back. Guess I'm not as diplomatic.

As Mark said, you shouldn't need loctite if torqued correctly. BUT..........I use loctite on cam bolts, crank bolts, just about anything I consider critical on any engine I am working on. That little bottle is never far away..

You have GOT to have some way to hold the pulleys stationary to get em tight. You did not have that bolt properly torqued or it would not have come loose.
Keith

[SouthwestSpider]

I understand Keith - there's no excuse for such mistakes that are so crucial. Have you ever used a method on those pulleys that keeps them stabilized while torquing them down? A trick or tip? I don't want to damage the pulley.

Maytag - Chris (Narfire) said that you are a valve adjust wizard! He recommended I check with you about a valve adjust tool but I went ahead and bought one. Thanks for the diplomatic thoughtfulness. I think it's highly important to learn the terms so that those who want to help will know what answers to provide. Even though it sometimes boils down to semantics - to paraphrase - when in Rome, don't speak Greek to get directions...

[maytag]

Sorry you already bought the tool (though you'll be glad you did)
I've been starting to assemble a "kit" of sorts, that would have the tool and many differing sizes of shims, with the idea that we could pass it around. Use the shim you need, replace with the ones you don't. Maybe contribute your own spares, etc etc.

[majicwrench]

I had a blast from the past a few months ago, was rummaging around my toolbox and came upon a whole bunch of fiat valve shims from the 70's. We used to do a lot of em back then, they would break the belt and bend the valves.
Keith