feel better now!

[maytag]

One thing about SUV use that people should consider is that frequently, this is the only vehicle the driver has. That was my case with my full size truck for many years. So when they are seen in transit with only a single driver/passenger, it is easy to overlook the many other uses that the truck gets. The other problem is that this situation is actually made worse by the welfare state. In the case of Massachusetts, where I live, I kept only the single vehicle because of the confiscatory cost of registration, title, sales tax, excise taxes and insurance that a second vehicle would require, totaling thousands of dollars a year. Maybe a good environmental policy would be to allow people to register and use second vehicles if the mileage was say 50% better than their primary vehicle, with costs of insurance only? Now THAT would promote cleaner car use quite well. But the welfare state really isn't interested in their stated goals, it is really all about collecting money to perpetuate the bureaucracy. At least that is the case in the US. It may be different in the EU. I haven't lived there yet so I can't comment.

good points. I like the idea. but for me, frankly, the biggest hurdle to additional car ownership is available parking. With myself, my wife and two driving-age children in the house, we already have 6 cars and 3 motorcycles. I keep my "other" car (the one I never get to work on ) in storage at another property, but I am still struggling to find parking solutions for 5 cars in my suburban neighborhood.
So while I would welcome the idea of an environmentally-friendly second car that wasn't taxed like the others, I probably wouldn't take advantage of it. (unless I could work-out having my children's cars qualify! )

[djape1977]

interestingly enough maytag , you must be the one feeling guilty since you're the one with most desire to defend the position of SUV owners.

in some EU countries licence plates are personal, not strictly vehicle related. that means that if you have 5 cars you can have only one pair of plates and use them on vehicle you're driving that day. you pay one isurance, road tax etc since you can't possibly drive more than one vehicle at the time. if you want your wife or kids to be able to drive your cars, you need to get another set(s) of plates.
in other countries registration costs are quite low, so for example i pay about 250$ per year (tax, isurance, etc) for a car with 2 liter engine so i can afford to have more than one registered vehicle.

driving a lada from 1979 is my way of daily enjoing what is a copy of 124 special. i would feel guilty to drive a vintage fiat 20.000miles per year in heavy city traffic. srapes, bumps, potholes etc feel very bad when i'm in one of my 60's or 70's fiats. also, it's a matter of what's locally available. same thing here as driving a 1979 dodge aspen in US for example.
in fact, mated to a fiat twincam and a short ratio diff it's a vehicle that constantly draws a smile to my face. also, being driven on LPG means that it's exaust spews out as much CO2 and hydrocarbons as simmilar sized sedan from mid 2000's, or as much as a modern vehicle with catalitic converter and MPI fuel injection. since we have mandatory yearly inspection for vehicles here, my claim is easyly proven every year. on, and by the way, LPG is half the price of pertol, so why not.

also, buying a new car would be wasteful and would add to global pollution, CO2 output and would only serve to improove bank managers end of the year bonus. so yes, johndemar, driving an old ford pickup diesel makes sense. why not? in fact, it's not that diferent from a red iveco truck in one of my previous posts.
my objections primarily go to moms doing a school run in a 3 ton 7 liter petrol powered lorry, and their husbands supporting that unhealty habbit

[maytag]

Djape, that's a very rational and well-articulated post.

to me, once all the rhetoric and histrionics are removed from this issue, it really is a question of fundamental philosophies.
If I'm understanding you correctly, it seems you've created a limit in your mind on how much pollution you are willing to be responsible for. As such, driving the car that makes you smile can still only be enjoyed guilt-free if it is done on LPG and used sparingly. I think that's what I'm hearing you say? If so, then that is a very reasonable-minded position for you to take, and I respect your decision to do so.

I've effectively done the same thing. I've created a limit as well. But that limit is in a different place than your own. The self-imposed limits I've given myself are well within the state-imposed limits. I know this because like you, we have yearly inspections which measure emissions form the motor. A vehicle which exceeds the limits will not be registered for road use. But within those limits, I manage to be able to drive what I enjoy, when I enjoy it, in the manner I enjoy driving it.

Here's where the fundamental philosophy part comes into play: I do not consider it my place to tell you where you should draw the line, and I bristle at you telling me where I should draw the line. Especially when done with such flagrant disregard for facts and realities. And also when injected with such contemptible racism towards Americans.

in some EU countries licence plates are personal, not strictly vehicle related.

some US States are like this as well.

in other countries registration costs are quite low, so for example i pay about 250$ per year (tax, isurance, etc) for a car with 2 liter engine so i can afford to have more than one registered vehicle.

But let's not forget the very stiff property and income taxes that are levied in these areas!

my objections primarily go to moms doing a school run in a 3 ton 7 liter petrol powered lorry, and their husbands supporting that unhealty habbit

what would you rather they do the school run in? a CX7? why?
do you understand the actual impact that moving that "mom and kids" from a 7L Expedition to a CX7 would have? let's pretend for just a moment that the CX7 will do everything that family needs it to do (but reading the posts above, you'll see that's not likely). The difference in emissions and consumption and even total carbon footprint seen during that three-mile-round-trip "school run" is negligible. Over the course of a year, you "might" be able to measure it. but it is minimal. Turning-down your home's thermostat 1 degree during a 4-month winter would have a significantly greater net effect. But in the meantime, you've put the Mom and her kids in something less safe, less comfortable, less affordable and less equipped to "make her smile", the way you said your Lada does for you. Why is it your place to impose that on ANYONE other than your own wife and kids?

[RRoller123]

Is that European license plate protocol common across the EU? I really like the idea of having just 1 plate per individual and moving it from car to car! And at low cost! Great! But.... It would never fly here. The US public bureaucracy needs the revenue stream they get from cars since our personal income tax rates are (relatively speaking) lower than in the EU. Our total current public sector spending as a percentage of GDP is 43%, http://www.usdebtclock.org/ which is obviously way higher than direct taxation rates for the average individual. The difference is made up in public debt and alternate revenue streams, like car taxes, sales taxes, etc. I don't have the EU figure, but my guess (GUESS) would be that it runs north of 60%. I don't see any other way that the EU welfare state could be supported without spending at these levels. Always been curious about this figure; if any of our EU friends know, please inform. I am honestly curious, love Europe and would like to know how the public sector spending as a % of GDP compares.

[Gunsmith]

Let's face it, Eco fascism is the new religion to fight and die for. By fighting for the environment it gives people something to fight for, be angry about and demand that others conform to it. It is interesting that much like religions even though there are many common grounds people still fight fiercely over the smallest of perceived differences. On this thread we have read that it appears that all of us wish to protect our environment and not be wasteful yet there is argument and hostility over what needs to be done and what just makes people feel better. It is also clear that if someone else does follow the same belief and practice they are welcome but if they conserve and protect in different ways then they are to be damned.

The reality of it all is that there are so many countries out there destroying the environment and natural resources that those of us in more environmentally knowledgeable countries are in actuality a mere spec on the environment. Since we have nearly banned or severely restricted the use of natural resources and manufacturing in our so called civilized countries everything has just simply moved to other countries where things are out of site and out of mind. It allows the environmentalists to be happy they stopped something in their own back yard but in fact made it worse in someone else's, ultimately being worse for the whole planet.

What that means is that even though we as Americans and Europeans though we have more vehicles and use more "things" we do a cleaner job of it for the most part. Most people if they drive big vehicles actually don't drive them very far for nothing as pointed out in a previous post. If someone has to drive long distances with out the need for a larger vehicle then they will most likely get a smaller one in time. So why be so mad at them? If I could afford for my teenage daughter to drive an armored vehicle for her safety I would because her safety is worth more to me than better gas mileage.

We can all find experts and data to justify any position we have and to debunk the others but that really won't do anything but make us feel better about our own decisions. I still haven't seen anyone who isn't completely sold on the whole global warming or climate change agenda also say "Just screw the planet and just pollute everything" but if you question those that believe that position that is what they label you as and say that is what you want to do.

It still amazes me the amount of knowledge found on a site dedicated to obsolete little Italian cars that have a bad rap.

You guys are all genius's!

[fiat218]

This is for all of you bitching about the heat. The clock is wrong...its only 5 pm. at least i can cool off in my 94 degree pool Now you know why i'm not out sanding on the spider.

Wow this tread is way out of control. Lol . Was it about the temperature

[Gunsmith]

Not sure the sweat was in my eyes?

[RRoller123]

"obsolete little italian cars that have a bad rap" LOLOLOL. Love it. What a description. Tell it like it is.

[djape1977]

Djape, that's a very rational and well-articulated post.

to me, once all the rhetoric and histrionics are removed from this issue, it really is a question of fundamental philosophies.
If I'm understanding you correctly, it seems you've created a limit in your mind on how much pollution you are willing to be responsible for. As such, driving the car that makes you smile can still only be enjoyed guilt-free if it is done on LPG and used sparingly. I think that's what I'm hearing you say? If so, then that is a very reasonable-minded position for you to take, and I respect your decision to do so.

20k miles per year is just how much i need to make, city traffic annoys me and i try not to participate in it if i can. unfortunately i live about 7miles from city centre and daily traffic jams are just a fact of life. i see no reason to use fuel with higher carbon output when better is available, and cheaper than either petrol or diesel.
for guilt free enjoyment i have my 1969 fiat 850sport coupe, 124 coupe, 1980 fiat 131, and 1980 fiat 132 that are run on petrol. in fact, i'd run them on leaded fuel if it was available. twin carbs and everything. for about a thousand miles per year per car it's acceptable in my mind.

I've effectively done the same thing. I've created a limit as well. But that limit is in a different place than your own. The self-imposed limits I've given myself are well within the state-imposed limits. I know this because like you, we have yearly inspections which measure emissions form the motor. A vehicle which exceeds the limits will not be registered for road use. But within those limits, I manage to be able to drive what I enjoy, when I enjoy it, in the manner I enjoy driving it.

state imposed limits in US are pure crap.
back in late 70's and early 80's most people were driving sedans. state(s) than started imposing emmisions laws for sedans but not for commercial vehicles. therefore, in order to avoid expensive re-designs and re-tooling, the big three started marketing campain that lasts to this day. and viola! now you drive a truck instead of a car. and YOU pay more than you need to. bummer. that's how state imposed limits have been rendered useless.

Here's where the fundamental philosophy part comes into play: I do not consider it my place to tell you where you should draw the line, and I bristle at you telling me where I should draw the line. Especially when done with such flagrant disregard for facts and realities. And also when injected with such contemptible racism towards Americans.

you seem to have forgotten what tis place is - a FORUM. google it to see the meaning of the word. let me explain it to you since we seem to have a language barrier problem AGAIN here:
originating from anicent greece, forum is a word of latin origin describing a place where anyone can lay their argument on any subject. naturally, replies and contra arguments are expected and welcome and spectators are left with their own decision on the subject.
therefore i am free to speak my mind on the subject and provoke an answer. remember what freedom of speach means? it used to be big thing in US. or do i need to explain that one too?
speaking about racism towards americans just exposes you as an ignoramus of the worst kind, since citizens of US (and non citizens living there) are of at least four distinctly diferent racial groups. how could i possibly be a racist when i'm a member of one of those races?
by the way, if you knew me in private life you'd know that i'm anything but racist, even having trouble with my neighbours for dealing with and having black friends and part-time workers in "strictly white" neighborhood.

what would you rather they do the school run in? a CX7? why?
do you understand the actual impact that moving that "mom and kids" from a 7L Expedition to a CX7 would have? let's pretend for just a moment that the CX7 will do everything that family needs it to do (but reading the posts above, you'll see that's not likely). The difference in emissions and consumption and even total carbon footprint seen during that three-mile-round-trip "school run" is negligible. Over the course of a year, you "might" be able to measure it. but it is minimal. Turning-down your home's thermostat 1 degree during a 4-month winter would have a significantly greater net effect. But in the meantime, you've put the Mom and her kids in something less safe, less comfortable, less affordable and less equipped to "make her smile", the way you said your Lada does for you. Why is it your place to impose that on ANYONE other than your own wife and kids?

again, you're the one that seems to have a BIG issue here. how do you imagine i could make you do anything when i'm half a world away?
cx7 was first thing that came to my mind but in fact, you could do 95% even in 626. remember, i work with cars, have 6 or 7 of my own + several parts cars + customers cars and yet i dont own a tow truck. when i need some pile of rust moved i call a tow company and pay for their service and on a yearly level it's still cheaper than owning a truck.


diference on doing a school run between mid sized sedan and big SUV is far from negligable. add to that the weekly shopping trip and visits to a beauty salon, veterinarian, friends and family and impact of gass guzzlers is not so small any more.

no safety is not the real issue, it's the image. you want to think that you might go off road some day if you wanted to but will spend all your driving life on paved road. you want to think that 4x4 is good for traction yet you don't even own a set of proper winter tyres, you keep forgetting that even a crappy lada as you call it, or crappy dodge aspen for that matter, can do 60mph on a dirt road and be more stable at it than average SUV, that you're already 40 pounds overweight and you might as well cut down a bit on your weekly trip to supermarket instead of getting yourself a bigger vehicle, you want to think that you might drive over the cars in front of you on your daily commute if you wanted to yet you never got the guts to do it.

and for education, take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZOhcEHYPj8 or any of hundred simmilar documentarys out there

[djape1977]

Let's face it, Eco fascism is the new religion to fight and die for. By fighting for the environment it gives people something to fight for, be angry about and demand that others conform to it. It is interesting that much like religions even though there are many common grounds people still fight fiercely over the smallest of perceived differences. On this thread we have read that it appears that all of us wish to protect our environment and not be wasteful yet there is argument and hostility over what needs to be done and what just makes people feel better. It is also clear that if someone else does follow the same belief and practice they are welcome but if they conserve and protect in different ways then they are to be damned.

if i'm an eco fachist (good choice of terms, unlike maytag), than you're yet to meet one pal. i just believe that each of us has to do a little bit on a personal plain and that it will all add up in the end in the big picture of things.
again, i can't make anyone do anything over a forum from half a world away.

The reality of it all is that there are so many countries out there destroying the environment and natural resources that those of us in more environmentally knowledgeable countries are in actuality a mere spec on the environment. Since we have nearly banned or severely restricted the use of natural resources and manufacturing in our so called civilized countries everything has just simply moved to other countries where things are out of site and out of mind. It allows the environmentalists to be happy they stopped something in their own back yard but in fact made it worse in someone else's, ultimately being worse for the whole planet.

yet our charchoal canisters are filled with this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqsUUKrjsLU

in my crazy eco fachist mind we might be better of if we got rid of them all together

I still haven't seen anyone who isn't completely sold on the whole global warming or climate change agenda also say "Just screw the planet and just pollute everything" but if you question those that believe that position that is what they label you as and say that is what you want to do.

i have. US citizen, living in san diego, driving a 6.9 liter pickup truck with oversized wheels, goes on an occasional hunting trip but since he's about 100 pounds overweight doesn't dare to stray far from the vehicle, owns a collection of guns including m16 and ak47. when asked why do you need 4x4 when you could drive a yugo on roads that lead to your favourite hunting grounds, reply was "it might rain, there might be mud on the road". sure, like he would stray from couch on a rainy day
and why does it have to be a 6.9 gas guzzler? " because i can"
and please remind me, why do you need ak47? "well i'm a hunter"
what's he hoping to hunt down, a taliban?
do i need to give you his name and adress and a phine number?

It still amazes me the amount of knowledge found on a site dedicated to obsolete little Italian cars that have a bad rap.

You guys are all genius's!

actually, having interest in something so much out of mainstream includes most members of this forum in a small elite group of people who use their brains. most, not all unfortunately

[djape1977]

Is that European license plate protocol common across the EU? I really like the idea of having just 1 plate per individual and moving it from car to car! And at low cost! Great! But.... It would never fly here. The US public bureaucracy needs the revenue stream they get from cars since our personal income tax rates are (relatively speaking) lower than in the EU. Our total current public sector spending as a percentage of GDP is 43%, http://www.usdebtclock.org/ which is obviously way higher than direct taxation rates for the average individual. The difference is made up in public debt and alternate revenue streams, like car taxes, sales taxes, etc. I don't have the EU figure, but my guess (GUESS) would be that it runs north of 60%. I don't see any other way that the EU welfare state could be supported without spending at these levels. Always been curious about this figure; if any of our EU friends know, please inform. I am honestly curious, love Europe and would like to know how the public sector spending as a % of GDP compares.

as i said not all EU. some countries also have very cheap registration for classic cars. like 50$ a year.

[maytag]

"obsolete little italian cars that have a bad rap" LOLOLOL. Love it. What a description. Tell it like it is.

They are far from obsolete at my house!

[djape1977]

If I could afford for my teenage daughter to drive an armored vehicle for her safety I would because her safety is worth more to me than better gas mileage.

same goes for wives, toddlers, dogs etc.
sure if she was in civic and got hit by an escalade we all know the result. yet i wander, what would it take for americans to give up on SUV's all together? i imagine like with any drug, it will be a long and hard process. or perhaps gas prices will make a short work of it?

when simmilar sized vehicles collide results aren't so dramatic and in modern cars, with all the airbags and cocpit reiforcements even horendeous crashes are survivable. again, in europe most people drive cars and trucks make up maybe 10% of all vehicles. trucks are mostly driven by professional drivers and they're rarely involved in accidents. very small cars have reached 5 star ratings and are very safe. just look at new fiat 500

however, i believe in darwin's theory. applied to modern human race, it means that not everyone will survive. what lions were 10.000 years ago, nowdays might be car accidents. those who can adapt will survive.
driving means having ability to think ahead and foresee possible dangerous situations, not just ability to reach the steering wheel. drivers licence is not god given right, but one that is earned, and IMHO earned far to easily.
should we all put our darling creatures in tanks with airbags? perhaps we should teach them to drive properly.

[djape1977]

This is for all of you bitching about the heat. The clock is wrong...its only 5 pm. at least i can cool off in my 94 degree pool Now you know why i'm not out sanding on the spider.

Wow this tread is way out of control. Lol . Was it about the temperature

how about this for a temperature gauge?
my dog yesterday

[Gunsmith]

So that's the dog days of summer, now I know what they mean.