It has begun - 1981 FI Spider

[sstarch1]

Latest issues/discussion of my Fiat's journey to full health here:
http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/viewtopic ... 56#p146556


Hello all,

I've been crawling these forums for weeks and have recently picked up a 1981 FI Spider.

Background
Drove it from Davis, CA back to SF, CA last Friday with no "real" issues (stalled when in traffic, see later); straight to a FIAT shop. The owner nodded in general approval of my sub-$1,800 purchase and said i should go enjoy that car for the weekend and come back Monday, so he can "make a list".

Drove like a dream on Friday; up to Twin Peaks, starting right up, etc. FFWD to Sat afternoon, where it sat from Friday afternoon - "Nina" (My name for the car) crank and cranks and never fires. What a shame since i had a great drive planned for the weekend. Ok. Whatever. Had it towed back to the shop on Monday morning, thanks to AAA, to find out some days later for the TECH that:

- The relay was toast. This was the primary reason why the engine wasnt firing up. TECH replaced it with a used one he has for $140. Yes.

- The Air Flow Meter was shot, specifically the rehostat was not working. Which explains why the idle adjustment screw was... well, missing. Instead a plug of sorts was used. Anyway, the TECH replaced the unit with a used one he had for $100. Yes.

- The radiator and fan assembly was (a) not from the same car, the fan being the "foreign" object and (b) the radiator was not correctly fitted/attached to the front of the car. This is most likely because the car was backed into by a truck, etc. Anyway, the TECH was able to properly seat the radiator and fan assembly to the holes in the frame. Yes.

- He did a couple of other things, and i got out of the shop for <$450. Yes.

Current State of Affairs
Anyway, drove the car down to South Bay where i was planning on changing the oil, putting in carpet, a trunk lock, and whatever else at my friends garage this weekend. Drove like a dream, no latency and very linear throttle response. No stalling, hesitations, backfires, anything. So the current assesment, is that the fuel injection, air delivery and combustion is good to go. No pulls when braking or accelerating, all the switches and lights basically work, the wipers work, the clock works cluth/gearbox is smooth with no slip at all. Feeling great.

Went out for lunch to Chipotle, and after coming back to the car, noticed a nice trail of coolant. F****.

Current issue #1
Given that most of my drives so far in the car have been in, brisk, non-trafficky conditions - i dont think that Nina even had a chance to overheat, yet. On my way back to work, I watched the temp gage like a shark (which in my recent memory never hadnt gone above 190). Needless to say, i took a longer route so that i didnt have to sit in traffic. If i moved -> temp goes down, if i sat still -> temp went up. Duh. I dont think that fan is properly operating properly when the temp hits 190+. I haven't visually confirmed this yet, but i dont remeber hearing any different sounds coming from the engine when temp fluctuated back and forth.

Questions:

• Best bets on diagnosing the fan? Guides/recommendations/etc?
  
  Should i change the coolant and flush the radiator regardless?
  
  While im at it im going to change the oil, and some brake lights etc; any other recommendations?

I am of a conflicting philosophy "If it aint broke dont fix it" vs. "I want to get my hands dirty with Nina." So while i want to start a good overhaul of everything, within reason, i also want to drive the car!!!! I think more issues will probably come to rise, like this coolant problem, as i use and learn about Nina's dirty little secrets. I probably should inspect the spark plugs and replace if necessary... what else... oy.

Anyway, thats all for now folks. I hope to make a good example of a smart guy with little mechanical engine experience (i am an engineer, just never really worked on cars before), and in the end, hopefully a nice overwhelming guide on novice DIY/FAQs to Fiat maintenance, restoration and modifications.

Cheers!

Stepan

[RRoller123]

The fan is loud enough that you definitely know when it is on. Comes on typically at about 195F. Could be the sensor at the bottom driver's side rear corner of the radiator, but also very likely that the ground is bad. A light blue wire takes constant power to the fan, then it is a series of black wires back through the sensor and over to the ground pod on the driver's side fender, with a connector or 2 along the way. I also had to properly purge the cooling system on mine to get the fan to work. Seems counterintuitive since the sensor is at the bottom of the radiator, but that is the case. Good luck!

Pete

[onemorespyder]

Check your cooling fan switch. Easy fix, quite often the problem. It's always good to start fresh, so go ahead and flush and refill your cooling system. Search elsewhere on this forum re; the cooling system 'T' topside of the engine towards the rear. Has a cap to aid in complete fill of the system. Gremlins can hide in the FI and that would probably be best addressed by a pro. Good luck with your new Spider and prepare for the smiles to come.

Regards, Darrell

P.S. Changing the plugs will let you get a read on the injection, ( lean, rich ) Look for that nice medium to light brownish gray.

[jimmycakes401]

Make sure your mechanic burped that system really well. My fan wouldn't kick on after I put in my fluid. I think it was because of air. I drilled a hole in the thermostat to let the air out and followed the burping guide. You'll definitely hear the fan. Super loud. Test the fan, the grounds going to the switch and the ground going to the fan. I just unhooked each piece and checked for continuity. If the heating system is apart, you can throw the rad switch into some boiling water and check the readings on a multimeter. Did he put a new switch in when he did the rad?

[sstarch1]

Hey all,

I updated the original post with this. The TECH performed this service also:

- The relay was toast. This was the primary reason why the engine wasnt firing up. TECH replaced it with a used one he has for $140. Yes.

It's always good to start fresh, so go ahead and flush and refill your cooling system. Search elsewhere on this forum re; the cooling system 'T' topside of the engine towards the rear.

P.S. Changing the plugs will let you get a read on the injection, ( lean, rich ) Look for that nice medium to light brownish gray.

Agreed on starting fresh. I'll be flushing the system this weekend, along with new oil.

Questions: Should i take whatever the spark plugs look like when i replace them with a grain of salt? Meaning, who knows when they were last changed, right?; putting in new ones and then however many miles later, seeing the change in the plugs i put in would give me the best data on Nina's condition present day.

Make sure your mechanic burped that system really well. My fan wouldn't kick on after I put in my fluid. I think it was because of air. I drilled a hole in the thermostat to let the air out and followed the burping guide. If the heating system is apart, you can throw the rad switch into some boiling water and check the readings on a multimeter. Did he put a new switch in when he did the rad?

Drilling a hole in the thermostat..? whoa. Maybe for pre-81 spiders? But i dont know why i would do such a thing. I'm 99% sure he didnt put a new switch when he "did the rad", but all he did was basically adusts its mouting position to be ... well, correct. Thus i also doubt he did any burping, etc.

Statement of Work for this weekend
In descending order or importance...

• Diagnose fan problem
  - Check the switch, then the thermo
  Flush/purge cooling system
  Replace Oil
  Replace Spark Plugs
  Put in a trunk lock mechanism
  Put in carpet

I'm open to further suggestions for easy maintenance while i'm at it. I can certainly postpone the carpet and trunk install.

Also, here's a picture of Nina. I'll post a bunch more of the internals when i get down and dirty this weekend.

[jimmycakes401]

I have a 1981. It's a very small hole that allows the air to escape. You can get the air out but it's easier to do this. Worked like a charm for me.

What relay was toast?

[supplyguy]

I thought my fan did not work because I never heard it come on. Reality is I believe thermostat has been bypassed, with water running continously from block to radiator. It has also been cool here, and I had hardly been stuck in traffic. Letting it idle for 20 minutes this week, I could see first hand the fan came on without a problem. Driven in traffic this week, gauge goes about 195, fan kicks on, all is well. Wasted Mr. E's time checking sensor, fan motor etc. And to think I was about to order temp sensor already. My lesson - rule out simple things before exploring harder stuff.

[sstarch1]

What relay was toast?

Dont have the repair list in front of me, but it would be the one which makes the fuel pump, pump fuel...? Sorry for the lack of a better description, but i can post a pic later.

[RedWolf]

I can't get over the fact that the clock worked; thought it was a legend like the Yeti or the Loch Ness Monster.

[rlux4]

I was one of the first to drill the hole in the thermostat. I saw the factory stat in my wife's Dodge Caravan had a hole in it and deduced it was to allow air on the back side an escape route. Looking at our system with the external stat I saw that the coolant coming out the bottom of the radiator and up to the stat would push air ahead of it and this air would be trapped at the stat which is closed. With the hole in the stat I don't even have to burp the system when filling it. I also installed the coolant T in the heater hose at the firewall. Since doing these two simple things I've had the coolant system drained and filled several times and never had a single problem with my cooling.
Ron

[spidernut]

There are Fiat clubs in San Francisco worth getting in touch with - lots and lots and lots of good networking to help you through the occasional issues you might run into:

http://fiatamerica.com/about/
http://barf.mirafiori.com/

Also, don't miss the All Italian Car Show in Alameda in October. Many of us in the central CA area show up and have a great time. You can show anything from a beater to a show car. It is really fun!

If you haven't already, check out Wine Country Motors. Kelly is a great guy!

[jimmycakes401]

My clock also works. I was very excited. I am the third owner and the second owner didn't drive my car. He left it under a tarp. Has 53,000 miles on it. Can't wait to drive it some day. LOL.

It's easy to find out if your fan works. Turn your car on, open the hood and stare at it until it moves. Usually takes my car about 5-10min in 60-ish degree weather. Usually right after it hits 190

[sstarch1]

It's easy to find out if your fan works. Turn your car on, open the hood and stare at it until it moves. Usually takes my car about 5-10min in 60-ish degree weather. Usually right after it hits 190

Yes. I am 99% sure it doesn't turn on, hence the coolant leak/spill after Chipotle the other day. Otherwise never had a 190+ temp reading or leak. I assume this "leak is just overflow from the coolant emergency release whatever.

[sstarch1]

So... a couple of posts ago i listed a "Statement of Work" for this weekend:

In descending order or importance...

Diagnose fan problem
- Check the switch, then the thermo
Flush/purge cooling system
Replace Oil
Replace Spark Plugs
Put in a trunk lock mechanism
Put in carpet

Carpet
I spent Friday afternoon and 5 hours on Saturday tinkering with Nina. I installed insulation and carpet throughout and cleaned the hell out of the interior. This actually took a long time, since i wanted to do a good job, while also waiting for the car to cool down between times when i was testing the cooling/fan problem.

Fan/Cooling/Overheating
So when driving my car to my friends garage in the first place, the temp got up to 210/220 when i was pulling into his driveway. Needless to say, the coolant leak started at that point. The picture below shows the leak from the passangers side of the engine bay. I had removed the fan by this point to test it, since the fan is not turning on when the temp gets to 195. The leak seems to be coming from the water pump / upper pulley area, but i cant pin point exactly where.



Both the upper and lower hoses were hot as hell. I guess i could be fooled by the fact that the rubber is hot enough for me not to tell the difference, but i don't hink so.
Conclusion: Thermostat works.

I jumped the leads going to the switch, with the car ON and RUNNING - Fan stayed off.
Conclusion: The switch isnt the main problem. It still might not work, but i've got bigger issues.

I removed the fan and connected it straight to the battery, spun right up.
Conclusion: Fan works.

I used an voltmeter to measure the remaining two leads from the relay (one which connects to the thermal switch and one which connects to the fan) The leads to the fan only measured 1.5 volts and the themal leads measured 0V)
Conclusion: Fan isnt getting enough voltage? So i need to trace the wires from the fan to the relay... right?

I did drive the car back to my house, It was about 80 and sunny. And mind you the temp went up to 180/85 when driving to the fwy on ramp (5 min) and then dropped down steadily to 130/150 range as I cruised at 65+ for 20 min. Then shot up to 185 during the 5 drive to the house from the fwy. Hopefully that's a good sign that the raidator is actually working theoretically... I realize that a drain, flush, burp, etc is necessary, but im not going to do any of that until i get the fan working...

I might drop the car of with another Fiat Tech in the area (Dave.. in Redwood City) just to get his opinion and any quick diagnosis he is able to provide. In an ideal world, getting the fan to work as designed, will keep my temp below 195 in all operating conditions, hence whatever leak i have at 220+ becomes irrelevant...

Anyway, trying to learn 17 different things at once is hard, so keepin' it simple.

Best,
S

[rlux4]

Is the switch you're talking about the one in the bottom of the radiator? If so are you jumpering the two leads to each other? It is inline with the ground wire and at temp it should close internally and complete the ground side of the circuit to the fan. You can check it in place by checking for continuity accross the two terminals and see if it's working as it should.
If I'm telling you what you already know....never mind. (Gilda Radner as Emily Litella)
Ron