Costs are adding up! Whats the value of a 124?

[aj81spider]

Roadster Salon have been posting a red one and a white one since at least April of last year. To my knowledge neither has sold.

Most recent posting of the red one - note the $179995 price and the fact that it didn't sell.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/81-fiat- ... 256b50264e

[RRoller123]

Interesting that it is missing the inserts on the arm rests.

[CLudwig]

Not flying off the shelf I see..
Here's the NADA info on the '83:
Also listing prices close to Hagerty
http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/ ... lues/Print

[maytag]

My research came in three ways:

1. Hagerty, which tends to be on the low side, valued the 1980 FIAT at $8,600 in "good" condition $13,200 in "excellent" and $18,200 in "concours" grade in December 2011, and at $8.5K, 12.8K, and $17.2K respectively in Sept 2011. Going up.

2. I've been watching auctions, eBay, and car sale magazines for a while now. Most FIATs sell cheap but most are junk or amateur, home restores. Any low mileage one I've seen in good condition is selling for more and any properly restored one for 12-17K. These look amazing but are far from "concours" grade.

3. All restoration shops I received quotes from were small shops. All were familiar with the FIAT, had restored some recently, and had proof. This leads me to believe that they are increasing in popularity as a candidate for professional restoration. This means that they most likely are increasing in price.

One other thing. Most high value FIAT's are either 100% original, low mileage cars or "restomods" restored to better than original condition.

Not to be a downer, but this is the same sort of research that is in part responsible for the present depressed-state of the real-estate market in America: inflated appraisals.

If you truly want the answer, you need to look for comparables SOLD, not comparables LISTED. If roadstersalon is claiming they are selling 30 of them per year, ask for a couple of references from LAST year, and a couple from the PREVIOUS year. If you discover for a fact that they have sold 5 cars for more than $12k, I'll eat my hair (ala Jeremy Clarkson). My guess is that you will find they sell several cars per year in the $5-$8k range, and they may have once-or-twice crossed into the $10-$13k range. But anything more than that is just not realistic.
Obviously it is in their best interests to inflate the values in everyone's mind.... especially their own.

Every car I've ever seen listed for more than $10k gets listed all over the country, over and over again, and carries in its' listing descriptors like "rare", and "collectible". Neither of which are true. And eventually I see those cars dropping in price 'til they're back into the reasonable market-range, at which point we all snicker a knowing little snicker at them.

[BEEK]

it is good to see the asking prices going up. i have restored 50 or so spiders in my life and caused the demise of 2000 or so of them in my salvage yards. in 2000, we were selling "gone thru" spiders for 5-6k, this was a quality paint job, a good running engine and trans, rebuilt suspension and brakes , new top and good used interrior, dash and console caps and new carpet, new cables(clutch, speedo, brake) everything operational. probably put 70 or so of these back on the road from 1995-2000, the 50 i restored people spent stupid money

[CLudwig]

Maytag, you make a very good point concerning over-inflated prices; but it’s not exactly the same.
I think we can all agree that a properly restored FIAT is expensive, unless you can do all the work yourself and you value your time at ZERO. I figure, the car is going to cost $15K or so in acquisition cost, parts and labor. More if you want a really nice car.

Would you disagree?

BEEK - having done this many times, what would you charge these days?

[maytag]

Maytag, you make a very good point concerning over-inflated prices; but it’s not exactly the same.
I think we can all agree that a properly restored FIAT is expensive, unless you can do all the work yourself and you value your time at ZERO. I figure, the car is going to cost $15K or so in acquisition cost, parts and labor. More if you want a really nice car.

Would you disagree?

BEEK - having done this many times, what would you charge these days?

No, I don't disagree with this at all. As a matter of fact, I absolutely agree. But I thought we were discussing the resale value? My contention is that you can very easily spend $15k on a restoration that has a resale value of $8k.
Most of us can figure out how to rationalize $15k on these cars even it is $800 at a time, adding up over a couple of years. Very few would plunk that down in a lump sum to buy one already restored. (though some may "commission" a restoration, like beek suggested)

[BEEK]

unfortunatly i dont have the resources i used to have (the junkyard) so the costs will be more than they used to be even with inflation adjustments. i am going to build a few spiders real soon, i have collected a few cars and think i have enough parts to make this happen. i want a nice early spider 74 or earlyer, so im building the 73 i have as i dont have a better donor. i have a 82 spider that i am going to build to sell. i cannot quoat a price at this time as i have no idea what im going to have in it.

[CLudwig]

No, I don't disagree with this at all. As a matter of fact, I absolutely agree. But I thought we were discussing the resale value? My contention is that you can very easily spend $15k on a restoration that has a resale value of $8k.

I’m trying to figure out how much I should put into my restoration and at what dollar value I’ll have the best return if I decide to sell. Alternatively, if you see a properly restored fuel injected Fiat or Pinin for sale at $8K as you suggested please let me know! There is no way I can come close to that even doing everything myself.

As far as pricing goes my rational is that if I’m willing to put the money into the car; and other people are too, then the cost of the car plus the restoration is the close to the resale value of the car. Unless there are a bunch of people letting restored cars go cheap; (perhaps because of the bad economy), but I haven’t seen that. The other possibility is that no one wants a restored car, and thus, no demand.

[courtenay]

Anybody watch Barrett Jackson this past weekend? Saw all kinds of cars to off the block with Mike Joy remarking that the bid price probably didn't cover the cost of restoration let alone the cost of the car itself. Other cars sold at prices most of us could only dream of.
My advice Cludwig is to spend what you have to spend to get the car where you want it - with the full intention of hanging on to it. If you do have to sell in, say 5 years, you can amortize the difference in the cost to build and the sale price over the 5 years and call this amount the "annual cost of having a hell of a lot of fun with a pretty neat car".
As I said in my earlier post, I paid top dollar ($10 grand) for a low miles, rust free car on which I've spent a couple of hundred bucks on maintenance over 2 years. I suspect that you, or someone else, would probably give me $10 grand for it today because you are going to get a car that you could spend a few thousand on if you wanted to do a repaint and interior refresh on, but those things are certainly not necessary. If I could only get $8 grand for it today, then the 2 grand difference essentially would mean it cost me a grand a year for some fun. I spend more than that on golf with about the same amount of enjoyment! Not too bad in my view.

[maytag]

As far as pricing goes my rational is that if I’m willing to put the money into the car; and other people are too, then the cost of the car plus the restoration is the close to the resale value of the car. Unless there are a bunch of people letting restored cars go cheap; (perhaps because of the bad economy), but I haven’t seen that. The other possibility is that no one wants a restored car, and thus, no demand.

I think you will find that most people who will spend that sort of money on a restored car, want to restore it themselves, or at least be involved in the restoration. In other words, they are people just like you.
If you wanted a fully-restored car as a turn-key, all ready to go, then you would be money ahead to buy one. You've already mentioned that roadstersalon has some.

There is very little market for a fully-restored car, unless it is viewed as a bargain because it is substantially less than what it would cost to do it yourself. This is true of almost ANY car.... even the truly rare or exotic cars that hit the auction blocks: the sell price never gets close to the investment cost.

I still say that if you are looking at this car as anything other than a very FUN money-pit, you will eventually be disappointed.

[CLudwig]

I still say that if you are looking at this car as anything other than a very FUN money-pit, you will eventually be disappointed.

You guys make good points; thanks for working though this logic with me.
From what I've seen I cannot buy a fully restored car up to my standards for under $17K or so, and a full restoration of mine will also run about $12-17K, on top of what I paid for the car, but it will be done my way.

I was trying to justify this to the logical side of my brain, but I see that it’s not going to happen.
I will give into the "right side" and just dump the money needed in and have fun.

[dom]

I think you are still confused. The car you will be restoring for 20k will be worth 10k. There are no 17k cars except in the wishfull imagination of some wannabe sellers. You will pay 10k to get a car exactly the way you like.

I still say that if you are looking at this car as anything other than a very FUN money-pit, you will eventually be disappointed.

You guys make good points; thanks for working though this logic with me.
From what I've seen I cannot buy a fully restored car up to my standards for under $17K or so, and a full restoration of mine will also run about $12-17K, on top of what I paid for the car, but it will be done my way.

I was trying to justify this to the logical side of my brain, but I see that it’s not going to happen.
I will give into the "right side" and just dump the money needed in and have fun.

[CLudwig]

I think you are still confused. The car you will be restoring for 20k will be worth 10k. There are no 17k cars except in the wishfull imagination of some wannabe sellers. You will pay 10k to get a car exactly the way you like.

See that's what I've never seen; a properly restored, fuel injected, low millage car for 10K. If you have PLEASE point me in the right direction!

[dom]

No matter how much money you spend on a restoration (eg. 30k), the car will never be worth as much as clean low mileage original car. Clean low mileage cars are very rare but they still won't sell for much more than 15k so imagine how much a restored car is worth. If you want return on investment wait for a clean original and leave it original.
You may have to wait and search to find the right one but you will have a rare survivor which may hold its value. Also a restoration to your standards will cost much more than you have estimated.