Solar Power for a Steel Barn

[SeldomSeen]

Does anyone have this? What are the options? Is it efficient for lighting and minor heating? How expensive is it. My 24x40 steel toy box has no AC power yet or propane so it gets mighty cold out there sometimes. I've been relying on my portable Yamaha generator for lights and a small heater but this woefully insufficient when it gets below forty degrees F.

[NJFIAT1981]

Setting up a very small solar panel system for my shed to provide power for lighting and recharging batteries. If you intend on doing this yourself there are plenty of videos on youtube. They are a good source for information for a start. Decide if you want to go on the grid or off grid. Research the equipment you intend on using and shop for the best price. I will repost as soon as I get mine up and running. Good luck with your search.

[wikkid]

You would need a LOT of solar panels to provide enough wattage to do any heating at all. You might be better off installing a solar hot water system, and doing some hydronic piping (baseboard units, since I guess your slab is already poured and you can't embed PEX tubing in it for a warmed slab).

This is a big topic.

For lighting, you can stick with DC current that the panels produce, and use boating fixtrues. Or, if you are converting to AC power with an inverter, then you can use LED lamping that would use very little power.

Can you install some south-facing glazing to get you some solar gain to help take some chill off? Of course, that can make the place an oven in summer if not properly shaded.

[maytag]

Here's the thing with solar, including some elaborations of a couple topics mentioned above:

What are you trying to accomplish in going solar? Are you trying to save energy costs? Or are you trying to find a way to get power somewhere that doesn't already have it? The answer to this question will dictate the response that is most useful to you.
If you are trying to save energy costs, spend your money in more efficiency. LED lighting is one good way. Better insulation and more efficient heating methods are waaay cheaper than adding solar, particularly a system sized large enough to provide for electric heat. the rule of thumb in the solar world is that every $100 spent in improving efficiency will save you $1000 in the size of your solar system.

If you are trying to get power to a place that doesn't already have it, this is MUCH more expensive than you may think. Yes, you can use DC lights, or even run a cheap inverter..... but what do you do when the sun goes down... (when you really need the lights). The batteries require a LOT of space, and most "affordable" battery technology requires regular "stirring".

Your sig says you are in CO. Take a look here:
http://www.coseia.org/join-coseia/membe ... ntech.html
The guys at CED have a lot of collective experience to draw from. (I am not affiliated, but I used to work at CED in SLC, and we had the same resources ). They can help you determine what the best course of action is, beginning with an energy audit. You may think you don;t need an energy audit, because you're a barn, with nothing to audit. I would suggest that if you can't do an energy audit, then you are a LONG way from solar being your best solution. CED Greentech can also talk with you about wind-power, which can be more efficient than Solar, but will still require some storage capability. And lastly, no matter what direction you go, they can help sell you parts, or direct you to one of their experienced contractors.

[AndyS]

I don't suppose you are anywhere near any natural gas supply? Those are the best and safest heaters for the money. otherwise, a propane tank heater in the 100,000 btu range will warm that space up fine.

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Heater-MH125FA ... 84&sr=1-10

I use one of these old kerosene heaters in a 20 X 40 garage, and it only takes about 15 minutes before I have to turn it off because it is getting too hot in there. the propane heaters burn a bit cleaner / small better. neither are as safe as a real vented gas heater.

http://www.amazon.com/KFA75DGD-Kerosene ... m_sbs_hg_2

I have a medium size 2400 watt array of solar panels on my roof I use to generate electricity. We have a grid tie system where it turns my electric meter backwards when I am not using a lot of electricity. the only reason I got them was there was a huge state rebate on at the time, and i was able to do most of the install work myself. otherwise, it is not cost effective. trying to use solar power to heat a large space is not an efficient or economically feasible solution.

[124JOE]

i agree a vented heater would be best
if you seal up your barn and use those heaters
remember the fuel will raise humidity
so dont expect to dry alot of stuff

even an old house furness will do you good

[FulviaHF]

I'd say Maytag's right about your particular circumstances. PV isn't a great solution for stand-alone power because of the storage issues; it's a better answer on-grid, where you can run the meter backwards during the day to defray the cost of drawing power when the PV isn't producing. We just designed a 25-unit apartment with a 10kW PV array, which will make the building net zero for common area usage--elevator, lighting, &c. (the units are metered individually). But it's on the grid, so there's no problem with the diurnal mismatch between production and demand.

Honestly, if this is a steel prefab behind your house, I'd say the most practical solution is to run underground conduit (preferably encased) from the house service to the barn, and run LED or fluorescent lighting and quartz radiant heating. Or run heating from nat gas or propane, as Andy S suggests--more efficient than electric heating.

None of this is as environmentally elegant as PV, but your situation doesn't lend itself to PV.

[brad131a4]

I think you should call GM and see if you can get some of the Volt batteries about 5or6 should do. You might be able to get them cheap and since its a steel building you wouldn't have to worry about it catching fire.
PV is a good concept just not cost effective. Best thing I can think of is to heat with propane and run electrical for the lights and outlets.
If you have natural gas on site even better run that to the garage and get a nice outside furnace. That will heat it up good plus the thermostat can be programmed.

[launieg]

Well, I have to add my two bits. I have a 40 by 30 metal quonset, and it is problematic. When the weather is cold, there is always condensations settling on the inside of roof and walls (ribs in my case). Then it drips and rust on tools and equipment is a problem. You would have to keep it constantly heated (and probably fanned to circulate the moisture - like I am presently doing) to drive out the condensation, unless you can do a good job of insulating the barn. I've done a lot of research to see what might work, and I am considering spray foam.

I realize this is not exactly what you are asking about, but I hope you are aware of this problem and have a good solution. I'd certainly be interested in a good solution!

[SeldomSeen]

Thanks all. You have given me a lot to consider. I needed a quick "for now" solution and purchased a Dyna-Glo 23K btu kerosene heater yesterday. It gives off a lot of heat. I will use this along with a portable electric heater run off my Yamaha generator for local heat along with the lighting. The building has several well placed windows and heats up nicely when the sun is out. I'll just stay inside the cabin, sit in front of the wood stove with a hot cocoa on those really cold days and read a good novel. Work can always be put off. My motto is: "I can, but I won't."

[FulviaHF]

Launie,
Insulation is obviously essential if you're going to be working in a cold climate; without that, the heating costs are absurdly high and, as you say, you'll get condensation--if not ice--forming on the walls and roof at night, with the equipment shut off. And insulation will also help eliminate or reduce condensation. But to do that effectively, you need a vapor barrier on the interior (warm) side of the insulation, and/or you need to keep air circulating to lower the dew point--preferably both. For insulation, spray foam on the outside would work, as the metal wall/roof panels would be on the warm side of the insulation. Or you could put foil-faced batt insulation on the inside, held on place with stick clips, with the joints taped with foil tape. The latter would be the typical industrial solution, and foil facing on the insulation helps distribute light, too.

And the best air circulation solution is probably an agricultural/industrial fan, with a wide diameter (they're available from 4' dia. to 24' dia.), running at slow speed--enough to keep air moving but not create much wind. It'll also destratify the air, so the heated air doesn't just find its way to the top and stay there.

[maytag]

One important note on all of this: most of the condensation we are talking about comes from the combustion of whatever gas you are heating with. (Propane is the worst, Kerosene might be the best?) One way to keep this managed is to vent the combustion air properly. The BEST way is to use a heat-exchange type of heater, rather than a direct-flame, and then have your heat source in a separate space (or outside) and duct the heated air into your barn.
For may years I used an LP "Tent Heater" to heat my garage. I'd place it on a shelf outside the back window and duct the heated air into the garage.
Tent heaters of this type can be seen here (click on the "premier"):
http://www.lbwhite.com/products/Tent/Premier/

I picked mine up used from a rental-supply yard for $300

[dmwhiteoak]

Of all these great ideas for heating the barn , why has no one suggested
a wood stove ? That is the direction I'm headed. I have plenty of firewood .

[FulviaHF]

Most of the condensation should be coming from the humans occupying the space. If it's actually coming from unvented heater combustion, I'd say you ought to worry more about asphyxiation than condensation...

[maytag]

Most of the condensation should be coming from the humans occupying the space. If it's actually coming from unvented heater combustion, I'd say you ought to worry more about asphyxiation than condensation...

Condensation from Humans is certainly a factor, but the moisture released into the air from combustion is significantly greater than what a couple humans will create in the space. Moisture will not cause asphyxiation, but I think you're suggesting that the un-vented gasses will, and you are correct. But the condensation is a factor IMMEDIATELY... not just when levels build-up, the way CO poisoning is a factor. Most situations that are heated with an open flame are not air-tight. the air exchange occurs regularly through air-leaks in the space. For the most part, this keeps CO levels in a semi-acceptable range. But the moisture created through combustion will not seek an escape... it will condense on the first cold object it comes into contact with.

So now would be an appropriate time to point-out that as you make a space more energy efficient, and you get rid of air-leaks, your venting becomes much more critical. Every year we hear of Darwin's children running a propane heater in an enclosed space and not waking-up.