Drove my spider for the first time

[dmg36054]

I replaced the rear end Saturday with one I purchased from Matthews Parts in Birmingham. It took a little longer to swap out than I would have liked, but eventually it all went back together. I bought the spider three weeks ago with a bad differential, so I had not driven it yet. I took it out for a spin, and, oh my goodness. I could barely keep the thing on the road. Very, very bouncy, twisty, and the front suspension apparently was completely removed and never re-installed, because this thing was all over the place.

So, it looks like I'll be replacing a bunch of parts. I guess I'll go ahead and do it all, that way I'm starting fresh. Control arms, bushings, shocks, ball joints, tie rod ends, connectors, etc. Might as well replace the wheel bearings too. The calipers have been recently rebuilt (so I was told), so that is one less thing.

The steering has a lot of play, and the steering wheel is not "clocked" correctly. It is turned toward the left quite a bit as I travel down the road. Any helpful ideas on checking the steering box and idler? I've searched and read as much as possible already, and I'd like to hear from someone that has worked on steering. With success!

BTW, what do I do with my old rear end? (No jokes, please!) I kept the rubber spring seats, and the rotors were in good shape, so I kept them. The pinion is shot, as well as the ring gear. Is it only good as scrap now?

Looking forward to meeting some of you in Norcross this Saturday.

[vandor]

Control arms, bushings, shocks, ball joints, tie rod ends, connectors, etc. Might as well replace the wheel bearings too. The calipers have been recently rebuilt (so I was told), so that is one less thing.

You can buy the entire control arms, or just bushings and balljoints, and install those in your existing control arms.
Replacing the bushings in the upper arms is easy, but the lowers are a huge pain. Do not attempt it without a press. If you go this route soak the bushings in penetrant for a few days before, several time a day. Unless you have a lot of wrenching experience, I'd recommend getting the complete arms, or at least the lower ones.
FWIW over the years the quality of a-arm bushings has varied, to put it mildly. We carry OEM grade bushings that are the best quality available.
While you can take it all apart without one, you will definitely need a spring compressor to assemble everything. You need the type that goes inside the spring. Most auto parts store will rent you one for free (full refund upon return).
Don't forget to replace the swaybar bushings, or at least the outer ones. You'll need to drill apart the swaybar brackets to replace the inner ones.

>The steering has a lot of play,

Very likely the steering box needs adjusting. There is a big 19mm nut on top, with a screw in the middle. Loosen the nut and screw the screw in until you feel resistance. If you screw it in too much the steering will be harder, and it will not return after turns.

>and the steering wheel is not "clocked" correctly.

You will have to get an alignment anyway after you replace the front end, just tell them and they should be able to take care of it.

> Any helpful ideas on checking the steering box and idler?

See above for adjusting the steering box. If you cannot adjust the play out (remember this is a 45 year old design, there is more on-center play than in a modern car) then you may need a new steering box.
Next to the adjusting nut on the steering box is a square plug. This is the oil fill hole. 90 weight gear oil should be about an inch away from the top. You can check by lowering a wire or stick into the hole. If it is empty then likely the bottom seal is shot. New ones are available, but you have to pull the pitman arm to replace it.

Likely you have the hydraulic idler. It has 3 hex-head bolts on top. Remove these bolts, the cover, and the think aluminum 'valve body'. Now you can see the inside of the idler. It should be mostly filled with fluid. If it's not, fill it with gear oil. IMO it is not that important what oil you fill it with, but thicker oil is less likely to leak out. These have no seal on the bottom, and the steel shaft just turns in the aluminum housing. It is not uncommon for these to lock up, and break off the body! It happened to me 400 miles from home...

>BTW, what do I do with my old rear end? (No jokes, please!)

You can save the axle shafts, and take the rest to the scrap yard, you may get a few dollars for it.

[spidernut]

Are you sure the front shocks are good or bolted in at all? "Bouncy" would indicate a shock problem. From your description, it sounds like really bad shocks, disconnected shocks, or shock tower rust-out issue. That's the only thing that would make it severely bounce in the front.

I agree with Vandor's advice with one addition: rent an internal spring compressor for the coil springs. Most of the parts can be visually inspected to determine what, if anything is wrong with them.

[azygoustoyou]

If your going to reinstall the same springs, just jack up the control arm all the way to compress the spring, put a chain around it and lock it with a chain link. You'll be able to take it off and put it on a lot easier than using a spring compressor.

[dmg36054]

Thanks for the input guys.

Yeah, I too think the shocks are kaput. I'll plan on replacing them with the KYB units that have been talked about on the forum.

Csaba, I have indeed read about the poor quality bushings in some of the control arms. Do the complete units you sell have the "good ones", or would I have to buy the "good ones" separately and install them myself? So, I'll pull the axle shafts and save them for a rainy day.

Fortunately, I work for a railroad equipment manufacturer, and we have a pretty good machine shop, welding department,paint department, etc. I can get just about anything installed, machined, bent, fabricated, welded, or painted. That works out really nice. I may just keep my existing control arms and buy the parts. Well see. I want to get it all ordered this week.The one thing I don't have access to is a sand/media blaster. I guess I'm going to have to invest in my own equipment for that.

Brady, I started following your restoration, and it is truely inspiring. I find myself wanting to do a complete tear down and rebuild similar to yours. But, man, that's a LOT of work. Not sure I'm up for all that. But I'll be oh so close. I plan on a complete front end and rear end rebuild, clean up, media blast and paint. I like what you've done; it looks clean and well finished, and I'd like for mine to look like that. I have a leak in the front somewhere, maybe an oil pan gasket, plus I want to paint the engine compartment anyway, so out with the engine and transmission. The interior needs a complete redo, including dash, and both consoles, so out all that comes. Through in some bodywork and a paint job. You know, from there it is not much farther to stripping it down completely. Hmmmm. Decisions, decisions.

[dmg36054]

Csaba, one more question for you. In the process of replacing my rear end, it looks like the panhardhard rod bushing are in very bad shape. It has to be replaced. But the upper and lower trailing arm bushings "look" fine? How do I tell if they are OK or if they need replacing?

[124JOE]

as the steeing is all over the place
you should inspect all the tierod ends and centerbar for bad ends"they make more play"

you can eyeball the alinment when you have replaced the bad stuff
but keep your steering wheel straight

remember to center the bars between the tierod ends,12 inches bolt to bolt or 13 end to end.
i went with a new lower control arm and 2 tierod ends to fix up the slop.

to check the 4 link ends.pull one bolt and put in a screwdriver in and push,pull to look for slack.one at a time

inspect the crossmember for cracks,and the mounting bolts as they do rip out

[vandor]

Hi Dennis,

>Do the complete units you sell have the "good ones", or would I have to buy the "good ones" separately and install them >myself?

The ones we sell separately are the OEM grade ones, either in the kit, or bought individually (the latter is cheaper).

>Fortunately, I work for a railroad equipment manufacturer, and we have a pretty good machine shop, welding >department,paint department, etc. I can get just about anything installed, machined, bent, fabricated, welded, or >painted.

A man's dream!

> I find myself wanting to do a complete tear down and rebuild

That is for the truly motivated people. A lot of ppl will take a car apart and never put it back. That is why it's best for most of us to do a rolling restoration, where we address just one area at a time.

>Csaba, one more question for you. In the process of replacing my rear end, it looks like the panhardhard rod bushing are in >very bad shape.

You can replace just the bushings, they are the same as the early trailing arm bushings.

> But the upper and lower trailing arm bushings "look" fine? How do I tell if they are OK or if they need replacing?

If the lower (long) trailing arm bushings are bad the car will steer with the throttle when going down the road (more noticeable at highway speeds). Press the gas and it will wander to one side, let up and it will wander to the other side.
Unless they look bad visually I'd wait until you have the front end done and aligned, so you'll know that any wandering symptoms are form the rear.
bye,

[kmac33]

Dennis,
I'll be happy to go over the ins and outs of both the suspension rebuild process and process for fixing (or trying to fix) your steering issues on Saturday. I rebuilt literally every part on my Spider including the suspension and steering and am very pleased with the way the car handles now.

[dmg36054]

Thanks Kevin. That's a deal I can't refuse. I just placed an order with Csaba at Autoricambi for all the front end bits, plus a new panhard rod. I'll take any help and insight I can get.

In checking the steering box and idler, do I check it out now or wait until everything else is removed?

Csaba, as I stated above, I ordered a big box o' parts from you. Two questions, just for clarification. Are the KYB shocks I ordered the GR-2 type that are so popular with the members of this forum? Secondly, I did not order the tie rod boots. Will I need these with the new tie rod ends?

Thanks guys.

[vandor]

> I just placed an order with Csaba at Autoricambi for all the front end bits, plus a new panhard rod.

It's on the way to you

>In checking the steering box and idler, do I check it out now or wait until everything else is removed?

The tierod ends need to be in good shape to check the play in the steering box. When you wiggle the steering wheel and watch the road wheel to check the play in the steering box you may get a false impression if there is play in the tierod ends.
Other than that, you can check them now. I usually find that on most Spiders I can adjust the a lot of play out of the steering box. Most people never adjust it.

> Are the KYB shocks I ordered the GR-2 type that are so popular with the members of this forum?

Yes, they are.

>Secondly, I did not order the tie rod boots. Will I need these with the new tie rod ends?

No, the new tierod ends come with them. We sell the boots so one can replace a torn one.
Thanks,