Spider build -- questions

[ajnsbdfr]

A friend of mine is stripping the parts off his 84 Spider (which suffered extensive body damage but is structurally fine and rebuilding with a 79 body for me. Along the way he is planning to replace the engine with a specially tuned engine that puts out around 200hp.

What recommendations would you have for a transmission for this build? The stock 5-speed manual will likely not handle the additional power well. Are there drop-in 6-speed replacements available? His concern is that the engine is carefully balanced for spinning up to ~9K RPM, and if we need an adapter for the shaft it will likely adversely affect the ability to run smoothly at higher RPM.

Have any of you built a higher-HP spider and run into this?

Thanks!

[Sunracer]

A friend of mine is stripping the parts off his 84 Spider (which suffered extensive body damage but is structurally fine and rebuilding with a 79 body for me. Along the way he is planning to replace the engine with a specially tuned engine that puts out around 200hp.

What recommendations would you have for a transmission for this build? The stock 5-speed manual will likely not handle the additional power well. Are there drop-in 6-speed replacements available? His concern is that the engine is carefully balanced for spinning up to ~9K RPM, and if we need an adapter for the shaft it will likely adversely affect the ability to run smoothly at higher RPM.

Have any of you built a higher-HP spider and run into this?

Thanks!

don't know of any 6 speeds to fit, the go to for a stronger transmission it so swap in a Brava/131 box, it is larger and stronger. Main issue is you gear shift lever will be further forward. There was at one time a kit that converted the 131 box with a shift extension housing, as is found on the 124 boxes. It was called an Abarth Shift Commander, or something like that. They come up for sale every great once in a while, don't know if any one is re-popping them. PB

[azruss]

it is also my understanding that the rear end wont take that kind of power either. need to talk to the racing guys about what they do there.

[manoa matt]

"Along the way he is planning to replace the engine with a specially tuned engine that puts out around 200hp."

Are you planing on putting in a non-fiat engine? Getting a spider engine to 200HP is going to cost $$$$ and likely not streetable. Most 200HP fiat spiders are track use only. Plan on 130-150HP and you will be more than happy with the results and your pocket book.

[katsi]

I have to agree with Matt on this one. 200 HP on these cars is just too much I can't believe I just said that. But it is. In my opinion. I know a guy that is pushing about 127 HP or something near that on the dino and his Fiat is a screamer and it has not been cheap. Yet, if you want to go with pushing 9K rpm's, you can always look into oil induction or whatever it's called. Don't care how much HP you got, at 9K rpms - it's all gonna end up melted together anyways.

[maytag]

While I agree with the comment about 200hp being a (perhaps) over-reaching goal, I'm not sure I agree with this comment:

Yet, if you want to go with pushing 9K rpm's, you can always look into oil induction or whatever it's called. Don't care how much HP you got, at 9K rpms - it's all gonna end up melted together anyways.

Are you making a statement that the TC will not turn 9k? Because I'm really hoping that 9krpm is a LOT more feasible than 200hp.

[bradartigue]

A friend of mine is stripping the parts off his 84 Spider (which suffered extensive body damage but is structurally fine and rebuilding with a 79 body for me. Along the way he is planning to replace the engine with a specially tuned engine that puts out around 200hp.

Make sure he's a real good buddy because I know some "good buddies" who will sell you $500 muffler bearings along with that 200HP motor.

Some things to consider:

- No one ever finishes an engine swap project (as in "I'm gunna put a 'Vette motor in my FIAT"). If it is one of those then keep it stock and actually drive the thing.

- Unless you are willing to spend $7500 on your Spider's motor then don't even dream about 200HP.

- There are maybe two people in the world who can build a 200HP FIAT 2L TC motor that won't explode. If he isn't one them then say "thanks, I'll keep it stock."

- Keep your FIAT motor and done some simple, reliable things to bring it up to about 120HP. You'll be happier and it will be plenty fast.

- A guy named Benny Wong once claimed to have a 200HP FIAT 600 two-stroke.

[maytag]

Some things to consider:

- No one ever finishes an engine swap project (as in "I'm gunna put a 'Vette motor in my FIAT"). If it is one of those then keep it stock and actually drive the thing.

Hey! If I was Rob-V6-Spider-2.0 I'd take offense to that! His might be the ONLY one I've ever heard of that I beleived would get completed.... and that because it'll be his SECOND ONE!

But I would otherwise agree completely: those projects rarely get compelted. People are never prepared to do the stuff they forgot to think-through when they started cutting.....

- Unless you are willing to spend $7500 on your Spider's motor then don't even dream about 200HP.

If you could build me a 200HP TC for $7500, I'd likely sign right now!

[Danno]

Lol, Benny Wong! Haven't heard that name in a while. He is the stuff legends are made of. I wasn't looking at the poster's name until I went and read Benny's name. I knew it had to be some old Mira fart, lol

Anyway, I'm gonna have to agree with the engine swap comment. I only know of about 2 swaps that are complete and driven. One is insane and beyond the cash and capabilities of most of us. Beyond those two fiats, I've heard a LOT of people start swaps that never get finished.

Our resident v6 swap seems like it will probably be completed, but before he is done I bet we'll have another three or four wannabes come through our Internet lives with the same aspirations but without the ability to get it done.

No reason we can't all hypothesize and kick around concepts on the matter. I know I've sat in several boring workshops and made doodles, drafts, and all sorts of plans for crazy car things that I'll never attempt, but for a fleeting second they sound good and attainable. Then reality sets in.

[azygoustoyou]

- A guy named Benny Wong once claimed to have a 200HP FIAT 600 two-stroke.[/quote]

Is that Benny Wong or Ben Wrong?


I just want to get my stock car on the road. Half of the people who start tearing these cars down don't even finish them.

[katsi]

Are you making a statement that the TC will not turn 9k? Because I'm really hoping that 9krpm is a LOT more feasible than 200hp.

Yes, in a way that is exactly what I'm saying. With the stock oil pump everything will melt together at those RPM's . You need a better system for cooling and delivering the oil to the motor to reach RPM's of that magnatude. I forgot the exact red line of the standard 2000 at the moment but I would say that anything slightly substancial over the stock red line is enough to start the melting process. That is why they put those little red lines on the tack after all.

Although, I do know a guy who has put the oil induction system (or whatever it's called) in his Fiat 2000 and claims to be able to turn over 7k on it. I also have no doubt that he is telling the truth. He actually puts the kits together and makes the parts in his garage to do this. I can probably hook you up if you want to go after that sort of thing. He also has a crank timing sensor installed on the car in question. It's a pretty sweet set up. Yes, he makes those too and they are available for purchase. Not to mention, he makes aluminum aftermarket parts for all sorts of cars not just Fiats. Want an aluminum flywheel for your Fiat? I'm pretty sure he can get that for you.

[DUCeditor]

Or as likely that "200 HP" is just generalization, perhaps by someone who knows little of these cars.

That is not a put down. It is the way most of us start/started out.

-d

[maytag]

With the stock oil pump everything will melt together at those RPM's . You need a better system for cooling and delivering the oil to the motor to reach RPM's of that magnatude. I forgot the exact red line of the standard 2000 at the moment but I would say that anything slightly substancial over the stock red line is enough to start the melting process. That is why they put those little red lines on the tack after all.

Although, I do know a guy who has put the oil induction system (or whatever it's called) in his Fiat 2000 and claims to be able to turn over 7k on it. .

Are you talking about a Dry-Sump setup?

I also have no doubt that he is telling the truth. He actually puts the kits together and makes the parts in his garage to do this. I can probably hook you up if you want to go after that sort of thing. He also has a crank timing sensor installed on the car in question. It's a pretty sweet set up. Yes, he makes those too and they are available for purchase. Not to mention, he makes aluminum aftermarket parts for all sorts of cars not just Fiats. Want an aluminum flywheel for your Fiat? I'm pretty sure he can get that for you.

And are you talking about Jason Miller, by any chance?

So, my own experience here, first-hand: I have a very tired, stock 1800 with over 60k miles on it. I regularly see over 7k rpm with it. The power falls-off sharply before that, but the motor keeps winding and makes sooo many cool noises at those RPM's. These motors LOVE to rev. I've actually never heard of the oil-pump being the weak-spot in revving these motors, but it's true that I am not a Fiat veteran in that respect. I am more concerned with the lightening and balancing of the rotating & reciprocating assembly which I'm in the process of doing, and then actually getting the gasses to flow (both in and out) efficiently.

I'm sure I could build another dry-sump system for the motor cheaper than I could buy someone elses... but I'm hoping to not need it.
Does anyone else have any FHE with the reliability of the factory oil-pump? And how about availibility of a performance oil-pump?

[ORFORD2004]

You know what?
You better change your friend, they have bad influence on you.
Lolllll!!!

[baltobernie]

Am I the only one waving a red flag before we talk about engines?

A friend of mine is stripping the parts off his 84 Spider (which suffered extensive body damage but is structurally fine and rebuilding with a 79 body for me.

These are unibody cars, and "extensive body damage" + inevitable rust issues somewhere = an expensive, yet still possibly unsafe 100HP car, let alone ...