Removing engine/trans

[kbee00]

I have decided to start a new thread on this topic. I have searched - a lot -and have found the information scattered and incomplete - and I only wanted to try and put this great info all in one place. I started by pasting links to all the different techniques and information - and it became a mess. So I am starting over. This is what I hope to accomplish:

1. Gather all info on removing engine - with head on and with head off - and pro's and con's of each.

2. Gather all info on trans removal - with the engine, without the engine, etc.

3. Necessary tools, tips, tricks to make this job easier and safer. Either removing eng and trans or just the eng or just the trans. Special brackets, etc. (I developed a bracket to aid in removing my MGB engine and a lot of other "B" owners made similiar brackets - this is what I am after.) Whatever the requirement.

4. Replacement parts "while down there" - what is best to do at the time of the major undertaking. Throwout brg? etc. This where we newbies need your collective experience. Personally, I know what I'd do, but I have mostly worked on English cars - and they were more pragmatic than the Italians.... I can tell just from taking the engine apart in Spider1..

5. Finally, the many, many years of collective experience this forum holds. I am always amazed at how we have come together to support and encourage the Fiat community. Can you imagine (I sort of remember...) how difficult it would be without this website for the "new" Fiat owner? Most of these cars would be scrap by now....sad indeed.

6. Anything I have missed -please help me make this an instructive and comprehensive thread. That is my only goal.


Thank you

[azruss]

Wow! you are asking for a mouthful.
Engine removal:
I have done all mine before i discovered the brain trust. I tried pulling the engine and tranny together and could never get it done. perhaps if i had help it would have made a difference. You need a very tall cherry picker to do both. I've always pulled my engines out complete and never found a problem. Here are a few tricks. take all 4 nuts off the motor mounts. On many cars, the starter is very difficult to remove from the engine compartment with the motor in place. It can be left unbolted and removed after the motor is pulled. Also remember to put the starter down in the hole before the motor is replaced. If your tie rods are disconnected, you can ignore the starter stuff. The eyelet on the head is pretty weak and will bend, but picking up from a single point gives you the flexibility to tilt the motor. When putting the motor back in, do not bolt down either end of the motor mounts. requires a lot of fiddling to get them into place. having a 2nd person on the hoist is a big help. careful about asking your wife to run the cherry picker unless she has some practice in releasing it slooooowly.
Tranny:
My 80 has an extended tunnel that allows the tranny to be removed without tilting the motor. When this started, I dont know. On early models, i had the best luck removing the gear shifter from the tranny by pulling the triangular plate on the bottom and dropping it out there. I have always worked on a set of ramps that are 12" tall. this gives sufficient room for a floor jack to help with the tranny and lot of room for you under there as well. If you are planning to reuse the donut, only pull every other bolt. I have tried using a big hose clamp to keep it compressed without much success. Even with half the bolts in place, it is still a bitch to get it back together again. Loosening the motor mounts and tilting the motor can be a big help on the early cars. tranny and starter bolts can be removed with a short socket followed by a u-joint and 18" of extensions.

Once the engine and tranny are separated, you need to inspect all the clutch components. pay particular attention to the throwout bearing activator arm. it has a weak spot at the pivot point and can develop stress cracks. also inspect tranny mounts and exhaust pipe supports for cracks as well.

[SpiderJim]

I just did mine a month ago on my 81 Fi. I had to jack the car really high and had about 17" of clearance. I borrowed a engine lift chain set from autozone. I purchased a hoist from harbor freight which is the 1 ton. I set it to 1/4 ton that gives the highest lift which is around 90 " I borrowed an adjustable lift slider that I can change the angle of the motor and tranny as it comes out. One of the lift chains attached to the front lift point and the other attached to the back of the head via the head bolt (removed then replaced later) I then undid all the bits needed to remove engine. I then took the load of the engine and tranny so that I could tilt remove the shift tower off the tranny (I would have done it the other way like in the azruss post if I had been thinking better). Once removed it is just a matter of lift a bit, pull change the angle and lift a bit more adjusting the engine lift towards the grill as required for removal. I did this by myself but would suggest a second set of eyes and hands to help guide things out. I installed in reverse placing the shift tower on and connecting reverse light switch last.

Suggest that you do not tighten any engine, tranny or exhaust mounts until you get the drive shaft connected to allow for final alignment. I aligned by just taking the load off the engine mounts with the lift so that I could get everything the way it should be.

Engine work.

Suggest use of engine stand Harbor freight $45
Replaced all front and rear oil seals
Replaced Pilot bearing
Degreased and repainted block and cam covers
Removed oil pan and checked all inside then replaced and painted

Engine bay easy while engine out

Replaced all Connectors to sensors
Checked Steering box condition and filled new oil
Cleaned and painted engine bay
Serviced all electrical connectors and grounds
Installed starter relay and headlamp relays
Do any front end work if accessable
Rebuilt and cleaned starter and alternator
Replaced Timing belt tensioner bearing etc.
Just think of anything that is easy while engine is out....

Tranny

Replaced clutch and rebuilt tranny synchros and all oil seals
Replaced throwout bearing and main shaft needle bearing

[digitech]

I second Jim's post. So far, I have always removed/installed the engine/tranny as a unit. On installation, leave the shifter housing off untill the engine is back on the motor mounts - then install shifter housing and raise the tail of the tranny into position. I have also learned to remove the cam covers for that extra inch of clearance as you jockey the engine into place. The device Jim mentions (and you can see it in the photo) is commonly called a "load leveler" and it REALLY helps. I didn't have one this last time I put the engine in and had to improvise - see my earlier post/pics for "how to use your daughter as a load leveler".

IMO, you can remove the engine "bit by bit" if you want - no problem, just takes a little longer. But when you install as a unit, you have the advantage of much easier clutch/pressure plate alignment and tranny installation.

[paladin124]

I'm just about to pull my engine and trans in the next month and want to keep in the loop. thanks for the info.

[kbee00]

This is great stuff you guys. Just what I was hoping for! List and procedures really help - and pics are awesome. From your posts - I have a list of questions:

1. Lift chain attachment points - I don't see the bracket you mention on my car. Any pics? What sort of bracket do you use for the rear head bolt?

2. Sooo, leave the starter ON the engine and remove AFTER or vice versa?

3. Anything else particularily tricky?

4. Seems like current concensus is to remove eng/trans as a unit. Is there some difficulties associated with just eng removal?

Thanks again everyone - I am hoping this thread helps all of us newbies.

[digitech]

The attachment points I use are:
- The stock Fiat lift bracket attached to the front, driver's side cambox.
- I attach a small bracket to the front, pass. side of the engine.
- In the rear, I bolt a small bracket to the rear of the head.
As I said, you can take the engine out seperate from the tranny if you so desire, just takes a little more time. You can even do it without an engine hoist if you break it down.

[kbee00]

I will double check my car for the bracket you mention. Snowing AGAIN today so no luck until the weekend, maybe.....

Where on the car do you recommend putting the jackstands? Assuming that I will be running an engine hoist in between the stands....keeping this in mind, where are the lift points? You recommended tilting the engine/trans backward in order to put on / remove the shifter body - how is this done? Jack under the tranny? Which would require the engine to be on it's mounts but loose - is this correct?

Thank you!!!

[msheldon]

Hey kbee00,
I live in Burlington, Wisconsin, only a few miles from Mukwonago and if you would like some assistance with your project, please let me know. I am willing to help with the engine removal, restoration that you referred to...it would be fun to help a like-minded person and learn additional info. that may help with my car also. Let me know if I can be of assistance.

[azruss]

The body has 4 jack points. they are located at the lower seam of the rocker panels just behind the front tires and in front of the rear tires. the is about an 1" or so of reinforcement in that area. If you use the front 2, they will be out of the way of the cherry picker. My 2L FI has a lifting eye bolted to the front 2 bolts of the cam tower (driver side). I have pulled corner headbolts and bolted chain down at those locations as well. If you are putting the motor and tranny in together, assembly goes in tail down. as the motor approaches the mounts, raise the tail up. a floor jack under the tranny mount works good. the back of the motor will hit the firewall if the motor is tilted nose up. With the assembly together, you should be able to hit the gear shift hole ok. just have the shifter forward. should be able to drop on the motor mounts at this point.

[kbee00]

Hey kbee00,
I live in Burlington, Wisconsin, only a few miles from Mukwonago and if you would like some assistance with your project, please let me know. I am willing to help with the engine removal, restoration that you referred to...it would be fun to help a like-minded person and learn additional info. that may help with my car also. Let me know if I can be of assistance.

That is incredibly generous of you. During removal I can probably do it by myself. But during installation (this fall/winter) it would be good to have an extra set of hands.

Why don't you send me your email and we can work on setting up a meeting time before the actual hard work ensues. Are you going to the FLU event in IL next weekend? I joined the group and hope to learn how to restore my car as efficiently as possible. Let me know if you need the link.

Looking forward to meeting you.

Loren

[kbee00]

I have contacted Apex in Bensonville, Il per the suggestion of FLU Chicago members. I am pulling the block/trans on Saturday and will be dropping off the short block to have it overbored to fit new pistions (per SteveC) and lightening the crank and flywheel.

I am working on finding the FI intake from the Fiat Croma which means I will have to lose the brake booster - which I was planning to do anyways.

Next step - machine the block, crank and flywheel. Install new pistons, rods (lightened) and bearings. Once the bottom end is good to go, I will work on the top end.

Any advice on how to modify the trans to handle the extra HP would be appreciated. I have read that the 131 trans is beefier but requires serious mods to the car - HELP!

I am going to add this post to my restoration thread - don't want to hijack my own thread!! I only hope to help those that are going thru the same process as me.

Thank you!!!!

Loren

[msheldon]

I will not be attending the FLU meeting but would like to speak with you about the restorations we are currently doing. Please email me at msheldon@cchsnet.org
Thanks, Mark

[kbee00]

email sent

[76was124]

I just recently put combined engine/trans back in on an '82. I had pulled them separately, but couldn't see putting them back separately considering the bolt access nightmare. It was the first time for me...Couple lessons learned on putting them back.

1. Two people and a leveler definitely helps.
2. Use a set of heavy duty ratcheting tie down straps to help support the engine, the single bracket is a bit scarey when it bends, and it can pinch the plastic timing cover as it does. Straps can be removed after engine is on mounts. Straps also help by providing a means to change engine angle when gravity and leveler isn't enough.
3. Steering linkage was removed.
4. Watch that the wiring on the firewall doesn't get pinched when putting the engine/trans back
5. If you can safely block the car from rolling, Jacking or ramps on the back end improves angle of entry for eng/trans
6. DON'T FORGET THE FLYWHEEL COVERS WHEN RE-ASSEMBLING THE ENGINE AND TRANS (I did forget and now I have to decide whether to pull the trans and starter bolts while engine and trans are in place or pull them both out again....Anyone have suggestions?)
7. Make sure have the input shaft alignment tool when re-installing clutch, I'm guessing it would be impossible without it if you were trying to install trans separately with engine already mounted.